Anyone ever sue a painter?

P

pb_foots

New member
:help:I recently got my car back from a complete repaint. A local guy who has done a few cars in the neighborhood did the job. It's a 96 Impala SS, and although it's just a 12 year old Chevy, it's mine and I really really like it. I saw the jobs he had done before, and they looked good, and the customers had nothing but good things to say.



The deal was disassembly, strip down to metal, (had major clearcoat failure), and repaint in jet black.



After 5 weeks, I got it back. The paint appears to be good, but there are sanding scratches all over the car, and several places where it appears that the detail guy missed since they are dull and appear to be wet sanded. According the the painter, he doesn't do the buffing.



Because it's black it's hard to see with halogens, but in sunlight the car looks worse than I could have imagined.



After checking the prices from some of the detailers on here, I figure it's at least 12 hours to correct this mess, so at least 700-800 dolars, plus the concern of taking off too much clear.



the painter says he's willing to take it back to the same guy who screwed it up, but I'm not sure I'm OK with that. He won't contribute anything to another detailer, and of course like an idiot I've already paid him.



So, after this Russian novel of woe, (sorry!), here's the question. I am an amateur by any standard, and don't want to tackle this. Do I:



1. Sue him for a repaint or the cost of some major paint work?

2. Eat it and pay a real detailer?

3. Let him try again?

4. Buy a rotary and try and do this? I know my PC isn't going to make a dent.



Man, I am perplexed here, opinions would be appreciated!



Took a few pics, sorry for the lousy quality, but you get the idea.



DSCN1966.jpg




DSCN1970.jpg




DSCN1967.jpg
 
I'd try to get your money back. About the same thing was done to my Trans Am. He painted, sanded, compounded three panels. Each of those is experiencing clearcoat failure less than two years later. He compounded the whole car, probably with a wool pad full of dirt judging by the look of his shop. Took me alot of work to correct all the damage on the panels he wasn't even working on "officially".



I should have tried to get my money back but didn't - it's a little late now. Don't let what happened to my black LT1 car happen to YOUR black LT1 car.. you'll regret it.
 
have a pro do it and get the bill forwarded to the painter or last detailer, maybe? or take him to small claims court with pictures of the car under halogens and in direct sunlight. he already stated that he would have the other detailing give it a shot, so there's no denying the damage.





just my .02
 
Well, I sue people for a living, so maybe I can help... LOL



A few questions first.



1. Did you have a written contract specifying the exact job he was to perform (ie: strip down and repaint)?



2. How would the job look to the lay person? Remember the standard that would be used to determine how the job was done is, "what would a reasonable person think of the work".... not a car nut. The pics look pretty bad so I'm assuming it is obvious.



3. If he is offering to take it back to correct the repairs, I think in good faith you have to give him ONE opportunity, but you should protect yourself. Take some photo's of the entire car (including the most damaged parts) and put a newspaper in each shot so that you can confirm the date of the photographs.



4. Draft a quick contract (hand write it in plain language just setting out your expectations). Think of this as a step in preparation for future litigation. Put something in it like "I am expecting a new paint job free of scratches and swril marks for which Joe Painter has been compensation X dollars". He might now want to sign it but at this point he does NOT have a lot of options.



I think you are in a pretty good position, but I would NOT let someone else touch the car if you want this guy to give you your money back. In all likeliness he won't give you your money back and if you have someone fix it, he has to many defenses available that you won't be able to hold him liable in Court (ie: those pictures can't be authenticated - how do we know that is the car he touched?)



Obviously if he is just willing to give you your money back that would be the best route, but my experience tells me he won't.
 
Thanks for the quick responses, I appreciate it. I really hope it doesn't come to small claims, and would realy just prefer to have my car right. I'm just not willing to live with this.



Here's some answers.



1. Unfortunately not. I knew I should have, and started typing one up, but like an idiot I didn't finish it. The only thing I do have is cancelled checks that say, 'deposit for paint', etc.



2. Yeah, you'd see it if you looked. Maybe most people wouldn't notice it at first glance, it is 18 feet of relatively shiny black metal and the defects don't show very well unless the sun hits it at the right angle. Of course, since the scratches are everywhere, there's always some showing.



3. Got it. Borrowing the boss' digital SLR tomorrow. Good point re: the dates.



4. Will do, good idea. I hate to set that tone, but I'd rather be pissed off than pissed on.



I think that's why I'm torn. After seeing this guy's work on other cars, and the paint really is nice aside from the detail, I want to believe that this is just a screw up and he'll make it right. My concern is his willingness to take it back to the same guy to be buffed again. If the guy was willing to let it out like this, what's he going to do to my car next time? I don't want to see peeling clear in a year or two.



At the end of the day, I just want what I paid for. it's not an expensive car, but it's my land yacht and I've spent 12 years taking care of it.
 
The real question here is how much you paid for the paint job?

All Im going to say is that if you paid $4K+++ then you should really get your money back. Anything less than $4K you will still find imperfections.



Pictures with more detail are needed.
 
My brother ended up suing the shop that fixed the hail damage and repainted his truck. Runs, drips, sags, fisheyes, overspray (wheels, door jambs, engine, glass and even interior door panels), excessive orange peel, sanding marks visible under the paint, aftermarket hood instead of the factory hood it showed on the invoice and to top it off, the color didn't match...and it was a 3 month old truck! My brother gave them two more tries and each time the truck looked worse. He was willing to have them do it a 3rd time where they were supposed to take it down to the metal and repaint the entire truck so at least the paint would match but they wouldn't provide him a rental for the 30-45 days they'd need the truck.



He contacted a lawyer who had my brother get estimates. The CHEAPEST estimate was $8500 and that was assuming they wouldn't have to replace anything (which by now included severe overspray on the wheels, engine, door jambs and interior panels). The paint thickness measured between 17 and 41 mils! Normal paint thickness on a Dodge Ram is 5 mils, maybe up to 8 with a repaint. Just an unreal amount of paint on the truck. Anyway, he ended up winning a $10,000 judgement which the shop actually paid. $4000 to the lawyer, the rest to my brother.
 
In WV, lawsuits under a certain dollar amount are heard by magistrates (which in WV are elected officials without required qualifications of any kind--Walmart and 7-11 probably require more to be employed:eek:). I sued my landlord a few years ago for refusing to make repairs to my moldy house (think of a Katrina car) full of holes. She apparently knew the magistrate who wouldn't allow me to finish sentences or respond to statements. The bailiff even interrupted the magistrate to ask if she was going to hear me out. I lost the case because I didn't request a jury trial. Off topic, but if you should decide to go to small claims court, I'd request a jury trial rather than leaving the decision up to 1 person who knows didley squat about paint.



If it gets to that level, you may be able to contact some local autopians to assist you in court and offer their expert opinion. Good luck--hope it turns out ok for you.
 
Just ouch. I'm really sorry to hear about this. You've received some great advice here. And it sounds like you're keeping your cool, which I know is really, really hard to do when you've spent a lot of money only to be disappointed.



The only thing I can offer is to clearly state your expectations to the painter as they stand now. That you chose him based on references and past examples and you expect the same results. That what you have now is not acceptable. That using his detailer isn't an option based on the amount of damage he already caused. And finally, that you want to be reasonable about this, but you're his customer and it's his responsibility to make things right. The fact that his subcontractor screwed up does not alter his level of accountability. He can address this voluntarily or in response to legal action.



All the best...
 
Run a thickness meter over it, then pay someone decent to buff it out. The time and headache of court is going to run way more than the $500 for a good detailer to polish that out.
 
themightytimmah said:
Run a thickness meter over it, then pay someone decent to buff it out. The time and headache of court is going to run way more than the $500 for a good detailer to polish that out.
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i agree, i would have him give you money to pay a good detailer. going to court sucks, just imagine how much money you would spend if you loose? its up to a jury of 12 to convince that the paint is not to your liking. if it was pealing off or the car was damaged then i would say yes.



when i got my show truck back from the painter it looked like ****, he was a painter and painted it. paint was great, it was thick, consistent, no fish eyes, no runs, but they prepped it the way they do all cars and their detail guy sucked. my friend who is a detailer and has been doing it for 25 years said not to worry and not to let the shop detailer touch it. he spent 60 man hours sanding and buffing it. first time ever in a show, i won best single color pearl. turn around and sound it at the same show because the buyer liked the paint and finish so much.



but thats just my .02
 
pbfoots,



A few more things... I think it is pretty clear you should give them at least one more chance. Just remember to take pictures of the car today and again when it is "fixed".



The lack of a written contract is NOT fatal, not even close (I just wanted to see if we had any aces your hand). You have an oral agreement for services, for which the shop/guy was justly compensated. The amount of $$$ you paid is NOT an issue (contrary to what someone posted). If you paid $2000, surely can't expect a $40,000 paint job but you can expect that which (and these are the key words) "a reasonable person would deem acceptable".



To me, it sounds like you are being VERY reasonable and my guess is the car looks very sub-par. If that is the case, you'll have recourse against this guy. Hopefully you can avoid litigation (and I don't think you need an attorney for this), just plain old common sense. Keep your canceled checks and your pics because you might need them.
 
I say get a good detailer to give you some estimates and see if the painter will compensate you for a correct detail. Court Sucks, and plus if you do go to court you have to take it back to him so he in GOOD FAITH can try to fix it (learned that from the Peoples Court)
 
Going to court sucks, and in my experience the "good guy" only wins half of the time. The time, trouble, risk, and stress of going to court just aren't worth $800 IMHO.



What we need here is a kind hearted, experienced autopian in the OP's area to step up to the plate and help this gentleman out with a discounted paint correction job. Every now and then someone has to stand up for the guy that gets shafted! Any takers??



If the OP is from Arizona I'd be happy to contribute my time, equipment, and products, to help a more experienced detailer do the job :buffing:
 
Man, Really sorry about this. I agree with what others say. I would probably just eat it and pay to have it buffed by a pro.



I was in the same position you are in. The paint job was actually very very good, but there were swirls and buffer trails all over the car. I mean BAD.



This was before I had enough experience to handle the job myself so I paid 400 bucks and had it done. I wasn't thrilled by having to pay the extra, but in the end my time and sanity were worth a hellava lot more than 400 bucks.



I live in Houston and I'd be willing to help out as well. I also have a PTG so we could check and see how much we had to work with.
 
Thanks gentlemen, I truly do appreciate the support, (and the lack of pointing out my stupidity :wall)



LOL, thanks kerrinjeff, I appreciate the sentiment, but not necessary. I really don't mind spending money when I need to, but I hate getting shafted. This car has paid for itself many times over, and has earned the cost of a great paint job at least once in it's life, (God knows GM didn't do it any favors!). Just FYI since it's been asked, the paint cost me 3K, and took 5 weeks. There are no drips, sags, or nibs visible so I really do think that he knows how to paint, he just has exceedingly bad taste in subcontractors.



I'm in the orange County/Inland Empire area, and would love to have a reputable detailer give me an estimate so I've got more info. At least that will help me make this decision with more facts in my possession. Any suggestions on who to contact?
 
IF the paint quality is good, and the only problem is getting the car compounded and polished, I would certainly go that route. Though, if you were to polish it out, only to discover, drips, sags, fisheyes, and overspray, your door to litigation may be closed by then.



Make sure you evaluate the paint quality before you go ahead and buff it out. You should be able to find an autopian in your area with the skills to make it acceptable again. It looks like a price would fall between $400-800 for a decent job.



GL
 
pb_foots said:
Thanks gentlemen, I truly do appreciate the support, (and the lack of pointing out my stupidity :wall)



LOL, thanks kerrinjeff, I appreciate the sentiment, but not necessary. I really don't mind spending money when I need to, but I hate getting shafted. This car has paid for itself many times over, and has earned the cost of a great paint job at least once in it's life, (God knows GM didn't do it any favors!). Just FYI since it's been asked, the paint cost me 3K, and took 5 weeks. There are no drips, sags, or nibs visible so I really do think that he knows how to paint, he just has exceedingly bad taste in subcontractors.



I'm in the orange County/Inland Empire area, and would love to have a reputable detailer give me an estimate so I've got more info. At least that will help me make this decision with more facts in my possession. Any suggestions on who to contact?
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bring it down on a saturday to a meet we're trying to get going. if there are a few detailers there maybe someone can give it a shot in a small panel and if it corrects you know not all is lost. if it doesnt, proceed with legal recourse?? check this thread:http://www.autopia.org/forum/southw...opians-southern-california-3.html#post1132995
 
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