Advice on ONR vs. regular wash

[john1r]

The reason I've been doing ONR washes is that I live in an apartment building. However, I was never really comfortable doing it in the indoor garage, so I ended up going to my folks place and doing the ONR at their house. I did one a few weeks ago, and another today. After the one today I realized that as long as I'm going to their house, I could use their hose and do a traditional wash.



So my questions are:



1. What are the main advantages to a regular wash vs. ONR wash (on a not-that-dirty black Audi)? I.e. is there less chance of marring/scratching/swirling with a regular wash (that would probably be my main reason for switching).



2. If I do switch from ONR to a regular wash, would I just use my same wash media (MF mitt), which I like using? Or is a sponge of some sort better for a regular wash?



3. Sorry if this one is really dumb, but I couldn't find a thread/sticky on 'how to wash a car'. Do I just: hose down the car to remove any large/loose dirt particles, use 2-bucket method to wash similar to the way I do it with ONR (wash a panel, clean the mitt, wash another panel, etc...), but rather than dry each panel as I go along, I wash the whole car, rinse with hose, then dry?



4. Lastly, what are some of the top recommended car washes? Could I just use my existing ONR, or is it better to get Optimum Car Wash (or some other brand)?



And please also let me know if I'm forgetting any important questions...



Thanks!

 

[454Casull]

Regular washing tends to swirl less than NR when the paint is heavily soiled - there are limits to what the wash solution can do.



An MF mitt is fine for regular washing.



Your assumed method for regular washing is about right, though rinse as often as necessary to prevent soap from drying on the panels. Also, depending on the temperature, you may need to exercise some fancy hose control to prevent water spotting.



Meg's Gold Class and Duragloss CWC are both good alternatives, I've never tried using ONR as a regular wash (though I do add some to my DG CWC as insurance).

 

[Dan]

You need to get comfy with washing your car in the garage for you to take advantage of ONR. Otherwise, you really might as well use Optimum car wash, which is a fantastic soap. You can use the exact same media. Two things about ONR that really help are, washing the car right after a rain. The rain will wash away most of the dirt that can scratch, your car is left with a film that ONR will have no problems removing. Second, always pre-soak with ONR.

 

[tomstin]

I haven't washed with a hose in 4 or 5 years and use ONR exclusively. I have purchased a pump sprayer from Home Depot for about $10 as I recall. I have that filled with ONR and give the sections of the car a spray to wet them down before using the ONR. I also use two 600 weight microfiber cloths along with a grit guard in the bucket. Works well for me!

 

[Accumulator]

The reason I've been doing ONR washes is that I live in an apartment building. However, I was never really comfortable doing it in the indoor garage, so I ended up going to my folks place and doing the ONR at their house. I did one a few weeks ago, and another today. After the one today I realized that as long as I'm going to their house, I could use their hose and do a traditional wash.



So my questions are:...

I'll take a stab at this, but note that the whole rinseless vs. conventional subject can get....uhm...contentious. Some people act like there's some sort of problem if what works for them doesn't work for somebody else and too often that presumed problem is the assumption that the other person has a room-temp IQ. Gee, guess why I'm being so defensive

1. What are the main advantages to a regular wash vs. ONR wash (on a not-that-dirty black Audi)? I.e. is there less chance of marring/scratching/swirling with a regular wash (that would probably be my main reason for switching).

I find it *MUCH* less likely that I'll get marring if I wash conventionally, but note that my "conventional washes" are a) foamgun-centric and b) quite extreme by any measure.



Also, on my Audis I've always found that I need to flush [stuff] out of areas that I can't really access when ONRing.



Finally, my conventional washes are somehow much more gentle on my LSPs than my ONR ones.



Disclaimer: the above are just my experiences; others have completely *different* experiences and YMMV.

2. If I do switch from ONR to a regular wash, would I just use my same wash media (MF mitt), which I like using? Or is a sponge of some sort better for a regular wash?

I do the initial passes with a Boar's Hair Brush, followed by a sheepskin mitt. ALL passes are done with foamgun output directed at the point of wash medium-to-paint contact. I find that the foamgun makes all the difference because it provides constant lubrication and flushing.



The problem with MF mitts is that they retain potentially abrasive dirt. The potential problem with sponges is that they can press dirt against the paint, resulting in marring. Both can be OK but both can cause problems. No, dirt doesn't really "travel up into the wash medium", magically staying up away from the paint Just doesn't happen IME.

To minimize the above-mentioned potential problems in the absence of a foamgun, you need to find another way to provide that "constant lubrication and flushing":



- mitts can be filled with wash solution (hold it under in the wash bucket, then pull it out while holding it shut at the cuff. Gently whisk it across the paint while the shampoo solution seeps out, rinse/refill when its drained itself empty or when it appears to be dirty.



- sponges should be utterly saturated with wash solution so they do a "flooding" type of thing, and should be rinsed/resoaked *VERY* frequently..much more often than you'd naturally think to do it. Use *VERY* soft sponges.



In both cases, more shampoo mix is better, you want a lot of it between the medium and the paint. And the more frequently you rinse the medium (or get out a cleaner one) the better.



All wash media should be moved in short (short scratches show less than long, sweeping ones), interrupted (so dirt has a chance to get flooded away rather than trapped between the medium and the paint), very gentle motions. And remember that as soon as the medium is dirty, it's gonna act like sandpaper.

3. Sorry if this one is really dumb, but I couldn't find a thread/sticky on 'how to wash a car'. Do I just: hose down the car to remove any large/loose dirt particles, use 2-bucket method to wash similar to the way I do it with ONR (wash a panel, clean the mitt, wash another panel, etc...), but rather than dry each panel as I go along, I wash the whole car, rinse with hose, then dry?

It's not dumb and washing without instilling marrng is *VERY* difficult. That's why this site has so many Paint Correction threads.



I've just *GOTTA* redo my "Accumulator's Non-marring Wash Technique" post...I'm supposed to make it into an article and it needs updated to clearly reflect what I'm doing these days. Eh, trying to elaborate beyond what I'll post here would be too much for me to do at present, but I'll be happy to elaborate/clarify if you ask specific questions.



For me, the idea is "dislodge and flush" and my goal is to avoid dragging abrasive dirt across the paint (trapped in my wash medium or between it and the paint). When I wash a winter-filthy vehicle, my rinse buckets stay very clean because the dirt doesn't get trapped in my wash media.



Wash the whole thing, and then dry. To avoid spotting, rinse the whole vehicle off at regular intervals.



Once it's been washed and rinsed, I spritz on a little QD while drying to provide additional lubrication (last chance to protect against marring, in case there's any residual dirt left on there) and do a little LSP-boosting.



The idea behind ONR is that it encapsulates the dirt, and you're supposed to wash gently enough that your "rubbing"/"scrubbing" doesn't overcome the encapsulation abilities.

4. Lastly, what are some of the top recommended car washes? Could I just use my existing ONR, or is it better to get Optimum Car Wash (or some other brand)?

If you want an conventional shampoo, I hear that the Optimum stuff is *almost* as good as the Griot's Car Wash that I use exclusively. I also hear that DuraGloss shampoo is good.



I find the oh-so-popular Meguiar's Gold Class to be only so-so, not enough lubricity for me. Don't buy cheap stuff, IME it really *DOES* make a huge diff; I used to use cheaper shampoos and found I got a lot less marring when I upgraded (believe me, I would never have spent the extra money had it *not* made a difference).



ONR is only for rinseless washing.

And please also let me know if I'm forgetting any important questions...

Try to think about the concepts/physics involved: abrasive [stuff] gets on the car. If it's pressed against the paint, and then moved under that pressure, you'll get marring. So....how to avoid that

 

[john1r]

Thanks as always Accumulator. Very helpful responses!



If I do a regular wash it will not be with a foam gun or any other 'special' equipment. Would just be a regular 2-bucket wash with the MF mitt (I'll look into the boar's head and sheepskin though) and a hose. Though I guess I can't do too much worse than my ONR wash, and at least this way I'll be rinsing more often, etc...



Would pre-soaking a panel using ONR at QD ratio provide any noticeable benefit when doing a regular wash (before the washing, not after the rinsing when I'd use a QD or the Hydro)? Just to get some added lubrication...

 

[Accumulator]

If I do a regular wash it will not be with a foam gun or any other 'special' equipment. Would just be a regular 2-bucket wash with the MF mitt (I'll look into the boar's head and sheepskin though) and a hose. Though I guess I can't do too much worse than my ONR wash, and at least this way I'll be rinsing more often, etc...

Well, you might want to spring for a few sheepskin mitts. If you try the BHB, you have to really steel yourself to using it *VERY* gently, with the idea that you're just "getting the big stuff off". It's easy to press too hard or cover too large an area without rinsing it out. FWIW, when not using a foamgun I'd rinse out *any* wash media numerous times per panel; e.g., no way I'd try to do half a door at a time. Just too great a chance the medium would get contaminated with something abrasive.

Would pre-soaking a panel using ONR at QD ratio provide any noticeable benefit when doing a regular wash (before the washing, not after the rinsing when I'd use a QD or the Hydro)? Just to get some added lubrication...

I've wondered about that myself and have experimented using some ONR for dirty areas before. But the way it "grabs onto" dirt can also make it stick to the wash medium and it won't always rinse clean enough for my taste. I guess I see ONRing and conventional washes as being pretty much mutually exclusive, though SuperBee364 has used ONR as a follow-up to a super-gentle (maybe even touchless) wash with the idea that with the "big stuff" off the ONR is plenty safe enough. I can see the presumed merits of using ONR that way; as an "after" rather than a "pre".

 

[john1r]

Thanks again! Do you have any recommended sheepskin mitts that you like?

 

[Accumulator]

Thanks again! Do you have any recommended sheepskin mitts that you like?

I've been using the Sonus "Wunder Mitts" (I think that's what they call 'em) but I've bought the exact same mitts under other names. And I previously used some kinda-cheap ones that were 100% fine as well.



Just make sure it's a *REAL*, natural sheepskin/lambswool mitt and not a synthetic one (look inside for the leather backing that's the actual "skin") and you should be OK. FWIW I find the "thumb" syle kinda useful even though I never wear it like a glove; the "thumb" can be handy for getting into tight spots (but not as much so as a small, long-bristled, BHB).



Oh, my Griot's mitt is nice (soooo soft and fluffy) but it can be just like the MF...retains stuff and oh man is it a PIA to pick stuff out of the nap. So I'd probably pass on that one. Long, fluffy, thin "hairs" just don't rinse clean as well as shorter, less-fluffy, thicker ones (hey, this is all relative so don't think "extreme differences").

 

[john1r]

Thank you again!

 

[john1r]

Hi again. I found a good price on a good foam gun and I may take the plunge. I was then thinking of using either Adam's Shampoo Wash or the Optimum Wash as you recommended above. I like the Adam's detail spray so figured I'd add their wash to my short list. 2 questions:



1. When using the foam gun, how much car wash do I put in it? Perhaps there are inx. on the bottle but figured I'd ask here as well so I know how much to order.



2. I was watching a how-to video on the Adam's website, and he hosed the car off, foamed it, then used 1 large wash mitt/pad of some sort and starting on the roof did the whole car (no including lower panels). Then he switched to a new mitt and did the lower half. Do I assume that he really did was the mitt occasionally and they just didn't show that to save time? The video was pretty fluent and he just went around the whole car with the 1 mitt and never rinsed it. Am I missing something???



Thanks again!

 

[Accumulator]

Hi again. I found a good price on a good foam gun and I may take the plunge. I was then thinking of using either Adam's Shampoo Wash or the Optimum Wash as you recommended above. I like the Adam's detail spray so figured I'd add their wash to my short list. 2 questions:



1. When using the foam gun, how much car wash do I put in it? Perhaps there are inx. on the bottle but figured I'd ask here as well so I know how much to order.

I mix up a gallon of concentrate- six oz. shampoo and the rest water- in a jug and I fill the foamgun from that. I then use one of the more potent settings at the gun, at *least* the middle one and if your LSP can withstand it I'd use a stronger setting than that.



Also, I replace the pistol-grip sprayer (that supplies the water) with a shutoff valve that I operate with my thumb/etc. MUCH more comfortable for me since it's on.....while wshing./off, while rinsing, on...[repeat endlessly]. I use one hose for the foamgun and another for the rinse, but if you're using one hose you will want quick disconnects to switch between the foamgun and your rinse nozzle. Gee, gets more complicated quickly, huh?

2. I was watching a how-to video on the Adam's website, and he hosed the car off, foamed it, then used 1 large wash mitt/pad of some sort and starting on the roof did the whole car (no including lower panels). Then he switched to a new mitt and did the lower half. Do I assume that he really did was the mitt occasionally and they just didn't show that to save time? The video was pretty fluent and he just went around the whole car with the 1 mitt and never rinsed it. Am I missing something???

IMO that video is a good example of how *NOT* to wash. When it was posted here I got into a bit of an :nono :argue with him about it (which I didn't like, but hey...). NOT EVEN CLOSE to a technique that I could use without instilling a whole lot of marring. Maybe it works for others, but not for me.



Presoaking with the foam is OK as it allows the shampoo to dwell for a while. But it's an infinitesimally small part of washing with a foamgun IMO. The real thing is buffering the abrasion at the point where the wash media knock it loose and moves it across the paint. "Dislodge and flush", remember?



Reread what I posted previously and think about that "constant flushing and lubrication" from spraying the foamgun's output at the point of wash medium/paint contact and using short, interrupted motions with the wash medium. Yeah, it *is* a lot like rubbing your stomach while patting your head and it does take some practice. It also takes numerous passes sometimes as each (sufficiently gentle to avoid marring) pass might be so gentle that it doesn't get much dirt off.



I bet I did a few dozen washes before I got my technique fully sorted out and I'm not exactly a slow learner It was well worth it though, as I basically never have to polish out any wash-induced marring any more.



Note that I have boosted water pressure, so my foamgun will rinse the BHB clean pretty well (without the boost it might not work so well). But even with the constant foamgun output blasting away under the boosted pressure, and the BHB having gotten the "big stuff" off, I have to stop and rinse out my *mitts* quite frequently. I sure wouldn't do an entire panel without rinsing! Repeat: once the mitt picks up something abrasive it can cause marring. Mitts just don't rinse as clean as BHBs, but BHBs don't clean as well as mitts (used properly, a BHB is too gentle to get everything off).



With normal household water pressure, the flushing won't be as effective, so I'd expect to rinse the wash media out a lot more often.



Hey, I err on the side of caution and admittedly this might all be more than somebody else will care to do. I've heard plenty of comments like "I'd rather just have marring" or "my method is good enough for me" and even "why do you have to do all that? I don't get any marring and I don't do that stuff!". Yeah, I'm pretty extreme about this; it's the only way I can get the virtually (yeah, just virtually not literally.... hey, nothing/nobody's perfect) marring-free wash results I'm after and it's worth it to me. BUT...OTOH, that's just me.

 

[john1r]

Thank you again! Yeah, I got thrown for a loop with that video...



I would probably not do the constant foaming/washing, but I would foam the whole car, and then foam each panel before washing that panel. And I will definitely make sure to wash my mitts very often, same as I do with the ONR washes.

 

[Kean]

Thank you again! Yeah, I got thrown for a loop with that video...



I would probably not do the constant foaming/washing, but I would foam the whole car, and then foam each panel before washing that panel. And I will definitely make sure to wash my mitts very often, same as I do with the ONR washes.

….one person’s goals, situation, etc. will likely differ in some way or another than yours. I don’t want to speak for Accumulator but I believe what he would like you (and others like myself) to at least take away from this is an understanding of the reason behind why he does what he does and not necessarily a step-by-step guide for how you should wash your own vehicle(s). Even if you are not able (or willing) to take it to the level he does, you can still capture some of that knowledge/advice and adapt (or integrate) it to your own regimen. Knowing how and why damage occurs during the wash process and seeing how someone like Accumulator is able to mitigate the risk through his process can help in the choice of products, tools and techniques you choose to use.



My own routine is a mix of several techniques I have learned over the years from others and while the results may not necessarily be up to some “Autopian” standards, it works for me. ….and with the help of others like Accumulator it is evolving as I go.

 

[john1r]

….one person’s goals, situation, etc. will likely differ in some way or another than yours. I don’t want to speak for Accumulator but I believe what he would like you (and others like myself) to at least take away from this is an understanding of the reason behind why he does what he does and not necessarily a step-by-step guide for how you should wash your own vehicle(s). Even if you are not able (or willing) to take it to the level he does, you can still capture some of that knowledge/advice and adapt (or integrate) it to your own regimen. Knowing how and why damage occurs during the wash process and seeing how someone like Accumulator is able to mitigate the risk through his process can help in the choice of products, tools and techniques you choose to use.



My own routine is a mix of several techniques I have learned over the years from others and while the results may not necessarily be up to some “Autopian” standards, it works for me. ….and with the help of others like Accumulator it is evolving as I go.

Well said. I have taken bits and pieces from all of his great responses and have used them in my prior washes, and will use some of his new comments in my future washes.

 

[Accumulator]

Kean- Yeah, that's a good assessment :xyxthumbs



If nothing else I wanted to provide plenty of food for thought. I sometimes suspect that people just don't consider what's really going on and how they can influence it rather dramatically, often through some relatively minor changes.

 

[john1r]

Hi again. Couple of follow-ups as I try and figure out how to do my next wash...

I find it *MUCH* less likely that I'll get marring if I wash conventionally, but note that my "conventional washes" are a) foamgun-centric and b) quite extreme by any measure.

Do you find a conventional wash w/o the foam gun (or with it but not using it on each swipe; just on the whole car first, and then each panel before washing), and w/o being 'quite extreme', to still be 'safer' as far as marring... vs. ONR wash?

Finally, my conventional washes are somehow much more gentle on my LSPs than my ONR ones.

I mean to mention the other day that the car is definitely less slick after the ONR wash (even after adding Hydro spray wax and some Adam's detail spray) than it was after I did the KAOI/845 several weeks ago.

- sponges should be utterly saturated with wash solution so they do a "flooding" type of thing, and should be rinsed/resoaked *VERY* frequently..much more often than you'd naturally think to do it. Use *VERY* soft sponges.

I read a lot about using grout sponges, particularly these: Shop ProLine Professional Tile & Grout Sponge at Lowes.com



Are they really soft enough or are there specific car wash sponges I should look at (if I use a sponge rather than sheepskin mitt).

If you want an conventional shampoo, I hear that the Optimum stuff is *almost* as good as the Griot's Car Wash that I use exclusively. I also hear that DuraGloss shampoo is good.

Have you heard anything about how Adam's might compare to Optimum?





Thanks again!