AcrylicWerks Test Car #2
- Thread starter Anthony O.
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milani
New member
iceman said:
Oh, Ok......
JasonC8301
New member
haha I was making the same assumptions to thomasfl. Like Klasse AIO on trim pieces and such. Why not just market it as a trim restorer? I would also like to know how swirls are removed without an abrasive product? Must be the toweling then right? Even some mechanical action is involved. Do you has a MSDS for acylicwerks?
Take a look in my gallery.... 1995 Silver caravan with 107K or so neglected for the past 8 years, just aquired and been trying to take care of it. It is clean now at least (still working on the SOS pad issues on the hood.)
2000 Ti Silver BMW 323Ci, Klasse and One Grand Blitz. Since my desktop is down and my camera is down in New Orleans, I can't upload the new pictures from last week with Zaino
Take a look in my gallery.... 1995 Silver caravan with 107K or so neglected for the past 8 years, just aquired and been trying to take care of it. It is clean now at least (still working on the SOS pad issues on the hood.)
2000 Ti Silver BMW 323Ci, Klasse and One Grand Blitz. Since my desktop is down and my camera is down in New Orleans, I can't upload the new pictures from last week with Zaino
Now we're getting some responses. First, the photos of my car were taken in the direct sun light. I will pull my car into my garage and photograph it again, then you will have a comparable photo. Thomas it may be tiring, but I just want someone who will tell me from their personal experiences, where are the swirl marks comming from? What creates swirl marks that are small circle abrasions and expand open to much larger circular abrasions, very similar to looking at a record in the sun? Now if we know what the culprit is, why do we continue to use it?
What I have concluded is; It amazes me to how many cars (visually) need to be restored. Talking with customers, the ones who can afford or desire a professional detail job will have it done. Those who prefer to maintain their personal vehicles are my customers to land, and again it will boil down to results. If you get results they buy, if you don't they will not buy. It's that simple. You will never fully appreciate the way I do my business until you can come out and spend a day with me in the trenches.
Mark G.
What I have concluded is; It amazes me to how many cars (visually) need to be restored. Talking with customers, the ones who can afford or desire a professional detail job will have it done. Those who prefer to maintain their personal vehicles are my customers to land, and again it will boil down to results. If you get results they buy, if you don't they will not buy. It's that simple. You will never fully appreciate the way I do my business until you can come out and spend a day with me in the trenches.
Mark G.
imported_Jinx1309
New member
Mark, I would also like to see the MSDS. Could you please post it or PM me it or a link to it.
Thank you,
--Matt
Thank you,
--Matt
Anthony O.
New member
Here is the dilemma Mark, and you and I have spoken about this before, you claim that swirls are introduced into the paint because of an abrasive product, which most here would agree with, but yet you also ask why we continue to use these products? Well our question to you is:
"IF abrasives CAUSE the swirls how then can a NON-abrasive product remove them??"
Swirls and scratches are caused by abrasions to the top coat, whether it be a single stage or a clear, and in order to remove them one must "level" the paint down to where the abrasions are. This can be done with a mechanical cleaner, like DACP or SSR2, or with a chemical cleaner which cleans via heat and friction from a buffer. In either case the paint is being leveled so people here are asking how can AcrylicWerks remove swirls and scratches WITHOUT abrasives ???
Your logic is that if abrasives caused the swirls then stop using the abrasives but what you are not figuring is that it was IMPROPER use of the abrasives that caused swirls. If possible please explain how AcrylicWerks removes swirls and scratches without covering them up.
Thanks Mark,
Anthony
"IF abrasives CAUSE the swirls how then can a NON-abrasive product remove them??"
Swirls and scratches are caused by abrasions to the top coat, whether it be a single stage or a clear, and in order to remove them one must "level" the paint down to where the abrasions are. This can be done with a mechanical cleaner, like DACP or SSR2, or with a chemical cleaner which cleans via heat and friction from a buffer. In either case the paint is being leveled so people here are asking how can AcrylicWerks remove swirls and scratches WITHOUT abrasives ???
Your logic is that if abrasives caused the swirls then stop using the abrasives but what you are not figuring is that it was IMPROPER use of the abrasives that caused swirls. If possible please explain how AcrylicWerks removes swirls and scratches without covering them up.
Thanks Mark,
Anthony
Final thought, I'm pretty positive that each individual has their product preferences, and that's great. I'm introducing my product as a way to offer the consumer an option, if they are looking for the first time or just want to replace their current products. We all want the products we use to be the best, and of course we will defend our products when challenged.
This is why I chose to fight my battles on the parking lot doing the demonstrations on the customers cars, for the last seven years. This way no matter what comes out of my mouth, the demonstration results stand on their own. I was able to stay at 32nd Street Naval Base off and on for 4 years. I'm never afraid to go back to an old base we visited and always look forward to seeing my customers again. You can attempt to dispute this, but I hope the dispute is based on some personal experience. In the end, like anything else, you earn a customer base and really it's up to the company that the consumer put his loyalty with to keep that customer.
Mark G.
This is why I chose to fight my battles on the parking lot doing the demonstrations on the customers cars, for the last seven years. This way no matter what comes out of my mouth, the demonstration results stand on their own. I was able to stay at 32nd Street Naval Base off and on for 4 years. I'm never afraid to go back to an old base we visited and always look forward to seeing my customers again. You can attempt to dispute this, but I hope the dispute is based on some personal experience. In the end, like anything else, you earn a customer base and really it's up to the company that the consumer put his loyalty with to keep that customer.
Mark G.
Anthony O.
New member
Mark, no one here is questioning your customers and their loyalty to you. You always seem to bring that up. What people are questioning and are asking is just what my previous post pointed out.
Anthony
Anthony
imported_BretFraz
New member
I don't think Mark is ever going to answer these direct questions. He knows that the experience and knowledge level here is far higher than his normal "customers" and that any technical insight will just open a larger can of worms for him. He also knows we cannot be fooled by product demos and the "see for yourself" mentality that typically works with people who do not have the extensive experience and deep knowledge that most Autopians possess. We've all been to county fairs and car shows and seen the miracle products and we know better. Anyone can put together a convincing demo and impress the masses. There's no question that the members of this community are sophisticated enough to see past the sizzle and want to know what the steak is really made of.
I'm not suggesting Mark is lying or even deceiving us, just that he's not willing to divulge detailed info to a group of people who can put 2 and 2 together and figure out what is really going on. I've read a lot of his posts here and on other forums and he's said precious little about his product's composition and ingredients. I do not see this changing anytime soon.
Hopefully someone here will win the lottery and can afford to have a whole bunch of products spectrochemically analysed so those that want to know what's in their favorite products will have all their questions answered. Anyone know what the Powerball is up to now??
I'm not suggesting Mark is lying or even deceiving us, just that he's not willing to divulge detailed info to a group of people who can put 2 and 2 together and figure out what is really going on. I've read a lot of his posts here and on other forums and he's said precious little about his product's composition and ingredients. I do not see this changing anytime soon.
Hopefully someone here will win the lottery and can afford to have a whole bunch of products spectrochemically analysed so those that want to know what's in their favorite products will have all their questions answered. Anyone know what the Powerball is up to now??
TortoiseAWD
New member
<insert sounds of chirping crickets here>Scottwax said:
Getting a straight answer on that one may be rather like trying to nail jelly to a tree, methinks . . .
Tort
imported_phareous
New member
Well if Mark cannot defend his product and give direct, insightful answers then I guess his product is nothing but snakeoil. Next!
Final thought. Mark is a good guy who is providing a one step product to consumers and not professionals. His product is probably incredible compared to the products that are available to the average consumer at Kmart, Target, etc. In that way he is doing the average consumer a favor giving them a product that is far superior to their raindance that they have been using. Most people don't know what to do with trim and in this way they now have a product that will remove oxidation, a huge adavantage to someone with limited knowledge. Another point to think about, if this product is so revolutionary, even to the average consumer, why isn't it in every store across the country? If I had a one-step product that removes swirls and scratches and protects the surface, I don't think it would be hard to find some funding or even have one of the "big boys" in the industry strike a distribution deal. Mark and his loyal customers love the product but what the problem is that I although I believe Mark is a great salesperson, he is lacking some concrete knowledge of the car care industry. Knowing the strengths and weakness of a product is important, I suggest using solid well known facts to show off the strengths and hide the weakness' of your product. It seems that this is just another product when it comes to being on the professional level. Marketing a product for professionals and consumers is based on different criteria, which is why the "big boys" add special professional lines for their products that cater to the high standards that knowledgable professionals have. My point is if you want to break into the professional detailers you will need to base your products use on different proven criteria with a more humble approach.
Hello To All,
Well I have taken some time here to reflect on your responses. My first response will be to bring everyone up to speed; I did not create this polish, the polish was created by 2 European Chemist who currently reside in Western Germany. They are very protective of their formula and have only supplied me with an MSDS that pretty much clears it for entry into our country via ship or commercial airlines and gives the necessary information to my commercial accounts for local and state inspectors. They back the product with their insurance and pretty much gave us the guidelines on where it is to be applied.
Out of couriosity, I asked one of my customers in San Diego who is a Chemical Engineer for the Navy to check the polish out. He came back 48 hours later and told me that they had a general idea as to what is in it and what isn't. He said with a little more time they could easily identify each ingredient, but it would be virtually impossible to duplicate the formula because it would take years and some very serious money to trial and error the proper amount of each ingredient just to get it close. He closed with, I should do everything to keep these guys happy.
So, I've learned how to apply this polish, how to ask for a demonstration and basically stand back and let the customer decide for themselves if this demonstration impressed or not. I'm not going to beg anyone to buy the polish.
Now, in regards to the $1,000,000.00 question, truely I can only rationalize based on seven years of observing each and every demo. We can confirm the lack of abrasives by restoring bug shields, plexiglass, wind deflectors, carbon fiber hoods, plastic windows on camper shells and helmet visors which are items that can be very easily damaged and leave no abrasion marks on the surfaces. We also base that on doing new cars that did not go to the make ready department and have strictly used my product from day one. These folks have enjoyed a swirl free finish and no fading to trim, rubber, etc.. Some now for seven years. As for removing swirl marks, I really just get in there and rub the surface until I begin to notice the swirls breaking down, then I will take a break and let the polish sit on the surface, then I will come back and again rub my polish on in a criss-cross motion to counter the swirls. When I'm finished, based on the quality of the paint job, it will pretty much determine how much of the swirl marks gone, usually anywhere from 85% to complete removal. I came to conclusion that this must be removing them because the swirls do not reappear in 1 month or 4 months later (customers are usually re-applying by now) and these are vehicles that stay outside full time. Now, from our discussions we know waxes put swirls into a paint job, and we would probably use a finer cut to reduce those swirls but at the same time that finer cut has also left some slight abrasions that are later filled with a glaze to create a mirror finish. That is fine, but we also know that any prolonged exposure to sunlight will melt that glaze and let those swirls reappear. So, with that I figured I wasn't filling the swirls because when my customers swirl marks are gone, they pretty much stay gone.
In the end, even if I had a complete breakdown of the ingredients it would mean squat untill I tested it myself. If the companies you deal with came to you and said they've created a radically advanced wax at 10 times the cost and they handed you a MSDS or ingredient breakdown how many would purchase without first trying it? When customers hear me say $30.00 you'd laugh at some of the initial responses, but when I say, "I'll show why it's worth it, on your car" you can generally hear a pin drop. Now you have their undivided attention.
Unfortunately, I don't think this response will work for everyone, but that's all I can provide at this time.
Mark G.
Well I have taken some time here to reflect on your responses. My first response will be to bring everyone up to speed; I did not create this polish, the polish was created by 2 European Chemist who currently reside in Western Germany. They are very protective of their formula and have only supplied me with an MSDS that pretty much clears it for entry into our country via ship or commercial airlines and gives the necessary information to my commercial accounts for local and state inspectors. They back the product with their insurance and pretty much gave us the guidelines on where it is to be applied.
Out of couriosity, I asked one of my customers in San Diego who is a Chemical Engineer for the Navy to check the polish out. He came back 48 hours later and told me that they had a general idea as to what is in it and what isn't. He said with a little more time they could easily identify each ingredient, but it would be virtually impossible to duplicate the formula because it would take years and some very serious money to trial and error the proper amount of each ingredient just to get it close. He closed with, I should do everything to keep these guys happy.
So, I've learned how to apply this polish, how to ask for a demonstration and basically stand back and let the customer decide for themselves if this demonstration impressed or not. I'm not going to beg anyone to buy the polish.
Now, in regards to the $1,000,000.00 question, truely I can only rationalize based on seven years of observing each and every demo. We can confirm the lack of abrasives by restoring bug shields, plexiglass, wind deflectors, carbon fiber hoods, plastic windows on camper shells and helmet visors which are items that can be very easily damaged and leave no abrasion marks on the surfaces. We also base that on doing new cars that did not go to the make ready department and have strictly used my product from day one. These folks have enjoyed a swirl free finish and no fading to trim, rubber, etc.. Some now for seven years. As for removing swirl marks, I really just get in there and rub the surface until I begin to notice the swirls breaking down, then I will take a break and let the polish sit on the surface, then I will come back and again rub my polish on in a criss-cross motion to counter the swirls. When I'm finished, based on the quality of the paint job, it will pretty much determine how much of the swirl marks gone, usually anywhere from 85% to complete removal. I came to conclusion that this must be removing them because the swirls do not reappear in 1 month or 4 months later (customers are usually re-applying by now) and these are vehicles that stay outside full time. Now, from our discussions we know waxes put swirls into a paint job, and we would probably use a finer cut to reduce those swirls but at the same time that finer cut has also left some slight abrasions that are later filled with a glaze to create a mirror finish. That is fine, but we also know that any prolonged exposure to sunlight will melt that glaze and let those swirls reappear. So, with that I figured I wasn't filling the swirls because when my customers swirl marks are gone, they pretty much stay gone.
In the end, even if I had a complete breakdown of the ingredients it would mean squat untill I tested it myself. If the companies you deal with came to you and said they've created a radically advanced wax at 10 times the cost and they handed you a MSDS or ingredient breakdown how many would purchase without first trying it? When customers hear me say $30.00 you'd laugh at some of the initial responses, but when I say, "I'll show why it's worth it, on your car" you can generally hear a pin drop. Now you have their undivided attention.
Unfortunately, I don't think this response will work for everyone, but that's all I can provide at this time.
Mark G.
Anthony O.
New member
Mark,
Thanks for the response. I am sorry to read though that you have no further information on your product.
I would like to point something out though that you wrote in your post that I find to be in error.
You wrote:
"Now, from our discussions we know waxes put swirls into a paint job, and we would probably use a finer cut to reduce those swirls but at the same time that finer cut has also left some slight abrasions that are later filled with a glaze to create a mirror finish. That is fine, but we also know that any prolonged exposure to sunlight will melt that glaze and let those swirls reappear."
Mark,
Where did we agree or claim that "wax" will introduce swirls marks? You keep saying that waxes contain abrasives but which waxes are you speaking of?
Also your detailing "steps" are backwards. You put wax on top of glaze and not glaze on top of wax. If you put glaze on top of wax then yes of course it will quickly wash away or as you said "melt" away. In my experience trying to put a glaze on top of a wax will create problems.
Lastly no one experienced in detailing will try to remove swirls with glaze or wax mainly because they DO NOT contain any abrasives in them!! Please don't take this the wrong way Mark but I believe you might be out of your league posting this type of stuff to pro's. Again I mean no offense, you are a very nice guy, but not too many on Autopia will agree with your last post.
Anthony
Thanks for the response. I am sorry to read though that you have no further information on your product.
I would like to point something out though that you wrote in your post that I find to be in error.
You wrote:
"Now, from our discussions we know waxes put swirls into a paint job, and we would probably use a finer cut to reduce those swirls but at the same time that finer cut has also left some slight abrasions that are later filled with a glaze to create a mirror finish. That is fine, but we also know that any prolonged exposure to sunlight will melt that glaze and let those swirls reappear."
Mark,
Where did we agree or claim that "wax" will introduce swirls marks? You keep saying that waxes contain abrasives but which waxes are you speaking of?
Also your detailing "steps" are backwards. You put wax on top of glaze and not glaze on top of wax. If you put glaze on top of wax then yes of course it will quickly wash away or as you said "melt" away. In my experience trying to put a glaze on top of a wax will create problems.
Lastly no one experienced in detailing will try to remove swirls with glaze or wax mainly because they DO NOT contain any abrasives in them!! Please don't take this the wrong way Mark but I believe you might be out of your league posting this type of stuff to pro's. Again I mean no offense, you are a very nice guy, but not too many on Autopia will agree with your last post.
Anthony
how come there isnt any BS flag smilies? hehe
actions speak louder than words... i personally dont believe what your product does but il judge it when u or someone shows that it actually does what you say. how about asking your supplier the chemists how their formula removes swirls without any abrasives. send them an email and show us their reply and then we might reconsider
heheactions speak louder than words... i personally dont believe what your product does but il judge it when u or someone shows that it actually does what you say. how about asking your supplier the chemists how their formula removes swirls without any abrasives. send them an email and show us their reply and then we might reconsider
imported_Greg1
New member
So are Mr. Gonzales and Mr. Orosco still going to get together and work on a car?
Greg,
Thank You for remembering that small fact. You know guys you may not like my response but one you always seem to forget is, I'm more than willing to meet with Anthony and let my polish speak for itself. This is how I make my living, doing the live demonstration. Like I said, I respect Anthony and will never take it personally when he offers his opinion. I'm learning this business from another perspective, and also keep my mind open to learn more about this industry from a detailers point of view.
I'm 7 years into what I do, and I've never got tired seeing what this product does. Now, I'm willing to bring one of you into my world for a day. Anthony, would you like to come out to Fort Sam Houston with me for the day and I only say the day so we would have some time to get a few demos in, Monday thru Saturday? This way a trust worthy source could pass the details on to the group. I offer this only if you have time and I would not pull you away from your business. I would even set up on a Sunday if that would help. To all, I'm offering this only to eliminate the doubt, so we can see if the claims hold true, even on unwashed vehicles in the heat of the day. Look forward to the responses.
Mark G.
Thank You for remembering that small fact. You know guys you may not like my response but one you always seem to forget is, I'm more than willing to meet with Anthony and let my polish speak for itself. This is how I make my living, doing the live demonstration. Like I said, I respect Anthony and will never take it personally when he offers his opinion. I'm learning this business from another perspective, and also keep my mind open to learn more about this industry from a detailers point of view.
I'm 7 years into what I do, and I've never got tired seeing what this product does. Now, I'm willing to bring one of you into my world for a day. Anthony, would you like to come out to Fort Sam Houston with me for the day and I only say the day so we would have some time to get a few demos in, Monday thru Saturday? This way a trust worthy source could pass the details on to the group. I offer this only if you have time and I would not pull you away from your business. I would even set up on a Sunday if that would help. To all, I'm offering this only to eliminate the doubt, so we can see if the claims hold true, even on unwashed vehicles in the heat of the day. Look forward to the responses.
Mark G.
JasonC8301
New member
AWMark said:
This really goes against some of the most basic principles of car detailing.
Use a product on a car that claims remove swirls, oxidation, and protect the finish, now also clean a dirty car? Also thrown in the heat of day?
I want to :argue
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