Achieving the perfect finish: How to SWAYZE your paint for the highest shine!

Hi Todd,


Lately I am toying with the idea of rotary jeweling my cars. Ocassionally I compound my car with either an orange cutting or white polishing pad. The compound combined with the cutting pad create some very slight marring or holograms on the paint almost all the time. After I buff out the paint using the rotary, I usually finish up with the DA to "jewel" the finish to its smoothness.

However, after reading your posts, I notice that MUCH can be gained by jeweling or finishing with a rotary instead of a DA.

Because I often create some SLIGHT hologram (nothing major) or marring by compounding with the rotary, I avoid finishing the paint with the rotary. But seeing so many people are already doing it with great results, I want to do it too.

I know that keeping the pad clean and free of dead paint and depleted abrasives can prevent holograms. Products like M105 and M205 also helps a great deal preventing holograms.

I consider myself an advanced DIY enthusiast with the rotary tool. However, to be on the safe side, I always polish and finish down a surface with the DA to save time and to avoid creating more holograms. Although I am achieving great results by finishing the paint with a DA, I want that extra pop only created by rotary jeweling.

What I have at my disposal is M205, which you had great results with when jeweling the Blue Gallardo :drool5:. I like to stick with M205 because I have a gallon of that for a great deal. I also have all the LC finishing pads at my disposal. What do you suggest I do when embarking jeweling with the rotary? My main concern is holograms. Holograms = wasted time with the DA. The paint I work on are on the harder side, but I sometimes work on some really soft paint. It would be great if you could offer me some tips and suggestions on efficiently jeweling with the rotary. Suggestions such as pressure, working time, rotary speed, etc could help.

I was told that a white polishing pad used with a medium to fine cut polish RARELY creates any holograms even on the rotary. If that theory is true, using a fine polish and a finishing pad on the rotary should not create any holograms either. Is that true?

Currently with a black LC foam in my hand, there's no way I could envision this pad creating any holograms with a finishing polish such as M205.



Please help! <3 <3 <3
Thanks!
 
dennn said:
Hi Todd,


Lately I am toying with the idea of rotary jeweling my cars. Ocassionally I compound my car with either an orange cutting or white polishing pad. The compound combined with the cutting pad create some very slight marring or holograms on the paint almost all the time. After I buff out the paint using the rotary, I usually finish up with the DA to "jewel" the finish to its smoothness.
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This is a very viable combination and one that a lot of top quality detailers use. However, I would say that you are 'Final Polishing' with the DA vs. 'Jeweling.' This is because I define jeweling (or the process of reducing pressure and machine speed in combination with a long buff time) as only being effective with a rotary polisher and a diminishing abrasive polish.

However, after reading your posts, I notice that MUCH can be gained by jeweling or finishing with a rotary instead of a DA.
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I don't think there is much to be gained. On most paints I can equal the finish I create on either machine. On some paints I can get a better finish with a rotary and on some paints I can get a better finish with a DA. There are so many external factors that I personally would not feel comfortable making such a cut and dry statement.

Because I often create some SLIGHT hologram (nothing major) or marring by compounding with the rotary, I avoid finishing the paint with the rotary. But seeing so many people are already doing it with great results, I want to do it too.
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When ever you machine polish you create marring!!! No matter what! You can never make paint 100% perfect, because with enough zoom on a microscope you will find residual marks from the polishing process. The goal is to make these marks as fine as possible.

Holograms are repeating marks caused by the repeating circular motion of rotary polisher which makes them very easy for our eyes to see. If the same process was applied but the motion of the machine was random vs. circular we would still have some marring only we cannot see it, and thus it doesn't exist.



I know that keeping the pad clean and free of dead paint and depleted abrasives can prevent holograms. Products like M105 and M205 also helps a great deal preventing holograms.
Click to expand...

Keeping the pad clean with non-diminishing abrasive polishes such as M105 and M205 becomes extremely important as you noted, which is one of the reasons you cannot jewel paint with M205. That is the definition of jeweling paint as described above (long working time, reduced pressure, etc).
I consider myself an advanced DIY enthusiast with the rotary tool. However, to be on the safe side, I always polish and finish down a surface with the DA to save time and to avoid creating more holograms. Although I am achieving great results by finishing the paint with a DA, I want that extra pop only created by rotary jeweling.
Click to expand...

I also tend to finish polishing by using a rotary and 'jeweling' the paint with diminishing abrasive polish, but not always. There are other combinations that can often create a similar quality finish, but some paints just do not respond well to certain techniques.


What I have at my disposal is M205, which you had great results with when jeweling the Blue Gallardo :drool5:. I like to stick with M205 because I have a gallon of that for a great deal. I also have all the LC finishing pads at my disposal. What do you suggest I do when embarking jeweling with the rotary?
Click to expand...

Because M205 is a non-diminishing abrasive you cannot jewel the paint with it, because using long buff times will mean more paint is pulled into the pad which can create larger marring that appears as holograms. If you are going to final polish with M205 and a rotary you can still achieve AMAZING results but the technique is going to be different.

Instead of working long and reducing pressure use slight pressure and work VERY short. When final polishing with M205 I will keep my work time per section to less then 20 seconds!

My main concern is holograms. Holograms = wasted time with the DA. The paint I work on are on the harder side, but I sometimes work on some really soft paint. It would be great if you could offer me some tips and suggestions on efficiently jeweling with the rotary. Suggestions such as pressure, working time, rotary speed, etc could help.
Click to expand...

I find myself finishing with M205 and a DA quite often. Let's say I polish/compound with M105 and a pretty aggressive pad so I have some buffer marks/holograming left. With a rotary I would go to a medium/light polish to remove the marks, then go to an ultra fine polish to jewel the paint and ensure a hologram free finish.

However, provided the paint is responsive, I could finish with a DA and M205, and combine two steps into one. This is because it is very difficult to produce visual hologramming with a DA because of the random motions it creates. Also, because M205 is a very fast working polish, it will produce an optimal finish shortly after the buffing cycle is started, I find that I can often final polish with M205 and a DA (to remove holograms) much faster then I can with a rotary.

Every situation is very unique and specific and experience is the best teacher.

If you are finishing polish with a diminishing abrasive and a rotary you may find using a longer work time and reducing pressure/speed as you go will help you get the finish to the highest potential of that finish.

If you are using a finishing polish with a non-diminishing abrasive and a rotary you may find using a shorter work time and maintaining constant pressure will help you achieve the highest potential of that finish.

If you are using a finishing polish with a non-diminishing abrasive and a Dual-Action you will also want to maintain firm pressure and you may want to use a firmer pad.



I was told that a white polishing pad used with a medium to fine cut polish RARELY creates any holograms even on the rotary. If that theory is true, using a fine polish and a finishing pad on the rotary should not create any holograms either. Is that true?
Click to expand...

Holograms are created by marring that is laid down in a repeating pattern. The pad can cause the marring, the polish can cause the marring, or bad technqiue can cause the marring.

The high quality white foam used in all of our Hi-Gloss pads (you have to be careful with some other LC pads because some use different and cheaper white foam) is a very good foam that still has some mechanical action on most paints.

It is a light polishing foam that is firm enough and provides enough surface contact to remove most swirl marks, while not creating swirl marks on most paints. In fact it is the ideal foam for most final polishing on a Dual-Action polisher.

On a rotary polisher the white foam can lend to an increased chance of creating hologramming. Although there no rules but rathers thousands of similar exceptions, I find that a black foam pad will produce a finer (thus higher gloss) finish on most paints vs. a white foam pad when used with a similar polish.

This is because the foam itself has less polishing action to the paint. If you are getting hologramming from a white pad and a rotary, switching to a black pad might be all you need to achieve a hologram free finish.

Currently with a black LC foam in my hand, there's no way I could envision this pad creating any holograms with a finishing polish such as M205.
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It's far more complicated then that, but I would say that will proper technique the black pad should give you a better chance at producing a hologram free finish.

If you want to final polish (again I don't call it jeweling because of the polish) with M205 and a rotary experiment with using shorter work times and very little added pressure, moving the machine fairly quickly. Try playing with different speeds, pressures, and work times, and find what works best with that paint and the pad with your technique.

If you would like to try 'jeweling' the paint as I defined it in the original post on this thread (and how it seems to be referred to on other forums as well) then you will need, by definition, a diminishing abrasive polish such as Menzerna PO85rd or 3M Ultra Fine (Ultra Fina).

Best of luck!

Todd
 
WHEW! I just finished reading this whole thread in one sitting and now my head hurts! :p Thats a whole lotta information there. :notworthy: For me, at least, "jeweling" is now properly defined and put into perspective. For now I will do the best I can with my random orbital and save any ideas of jeweling paint until I make the quantum leap to a rotary.

Once again, this forum saved me a lot of trial & error....mostly ERROR. :thumbup:
 
Thanks for the reply Todd,

That is really clear and helpful! I will try your technique of slight pressure and roughly-20-second finishing technique with M205.

Would you recommend the PO85RD purely for jeweling for someone who already has a large supply of M205? Is the difference between the two drastic?
 
Awesome write up Todd!!! I always wondered about this and now I understand the knowledge behind it, now I just need to get some hands on time :D
 
The pictures for this guide are no longer available. Did anyone save them, or can they be re-uploaded? Thank you. :)
 
Thanks again for re-uploading the pictures. It was mentioned above that 205 shouldn't be worked for longer than 20 seconds or so. How long should it take to jewel a 2' x 2' panel with PO85rd?
 
Moutee said:
Thanks again for re-uploading the pictures. It was mentioned above that 205 shouldn't be worked for longer than 20 seconds or so. How long should it take to jewel a 2' x 2' panel with PO85rd?
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Jeweling unlike correction takes a lot of passes. I do a minimum of 12 passes on a 2x2 area.
 
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