A new perspective on paint defect return (interesting)

Very informative and valuable thread. Thanks to all involved in putting this information together so that everybody can learn equally from it.
 
rydawg said:
I've always said it... certain qd's, car wash waxes, and waxes loaded with tons of silicones are more damage on a car than not protecting it at all.
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Post up a picture of that black CTS that had the silicon stains in the paint. That thing had some issues!
 
In my limited experience, I've seen that Menzerna polishes - even after a IPO wipe down affected the bonding of Zaino on a car I detailed. It's not a big jump to see that if the polish was still there enough to affect bonding - then it could be enough to affect the looks too, as in maybe there were a few swirls that were covered instead of eliminated.



Is it possible to really get 100% clean, polished paint with no by-products left and then add a sealer/wax. Will the LSP add some filling? Does it matter? - I know the answer to that one for my customers - NO, I only hear," I wanna purdy shine and clean out the floorboards, and don't worry bout that dog hair in the back - deer season is coming."
 
Best thread ever.....



Thanks Todd for posting this and giving extra effort to help us all out. Also thanks to the gentlemen from Meguiars for being so open.



IME panels that have been repainted stand more of a chance of having defects masked. At least that is what is happening with me on this black Benz I am working on. At least five panels have been repainted, they are softer then the OEM paint on the rest of the car and on the thin side. They heat up very quick.



I did a ABC paint decontamination wash and have been doing wipedowns with prep solv and IPA. The OEM paint/clear even though harder and requiring more steps to correct, actually took less time to figure out a process. There will be fewer polishing steps on the repainted panels, but the process used for each polishing step is much slower.



I spent over an hour on the phone with Ryan yesterday and we where able to figure out a process that so far has worked on the repainted panels. Today is cooler out, so we shall see....
 
iamwaxman said:
Todd



I am glad to have corresponded with you via phone and e-mail.

As you now know, my friend Jason Rose is a wealth of information. He truly respects the company he works for and takes seriously the products they send to market.

Jason is a man genuinely concerned that the end-user will be satisfied with the performance of the products Meguiar's offers.

He's also a major reason M86, M95, M105, and D151 work as well as they do (he's one-part of a talented Meguiar's R&D team).



The reason I contacted you directly (rather than through the forum) was to have a discussion about the paint-swelling mystery (with credit sometimes given to 'paint-fillers').



This phenomenon has been identified as paint-filling or paint-swelling, and many times we don't even realize it's occurred until much time has passed.

Once discovered we blurt, "The paint just shrunk back on me- Dang!"

When our hard work later shows instilled defects that we certainly did not see upon our wrap-up of the polishing session, it's a real drag.



I wanted to offer information (as well as correct some terminology being used) that would dispel a notion that identified specific Meguiar's liquids as having 'fillers'.

The fillers were credited with an ability to mask defects (NOT something we desire when we're trying to ELIMINATE them!)



No matter how I'd have worded it, my post might have come across as all-knowing, brash, offensive, confrontational, etc.

After all, I am not a frequent poster here on autopia, so I don't expect to post a strong statement and not be called to the mat over it.

If I didn't word things just so, the discussion could have taken a turn in a negative direction- And I'm just not in to the online fist-fight thing.

So, rather than post an opinion on it, I decided to contact you directly.



My hope was to discuss, learn, and inform... To help if I could, too.

Lucky for us all, you hopped on the phone and called (talking directly with people is always better, so the call was appreciated).

Your willingness to take the lead ended in a scenario where Jason was able to easily share valuable information in a simple and well-received manner (I hope I've dropped a few pennies into the fountain as well!)



Thanks a lot for your professionalism, trust, and follow through on the matter.
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Kevin, I TRUTHFULLY cannot thank you enough for your vaulable information you shared with me openly.



Kevin approched me in an email, basically correcting some information about Meguiars M105 that I had posted. He came across as so knowledgable and open that I had to call him. With in 2 minutes of talking with him, I knew it was better to keep my mouth shut and my ears open as Kevin is an absolute wealth of knowledge and experience. After years of trying to find factual and sensible information with out mysticism and defense, I was simply blown away.



Kevin put me (via email) into contact with Jason Rose from Meguairs, who again is another guy who has likely forgotten more about true detailing then I know. He was open to having his thoughts posted for everybody to learn, and to me and my experience with several different manufacturers this was beyond refreshing.



Information as told to me by Kevin and as posted from Jason should be the cornerstone of any successful detailing community. This is the foundation that allows us all to grow.



Or in Junebug's case make paint really shiney for deer season ;)
 
Jokeman said:
Post up a picture of that black CTS that had the silicon stains in the paint. That thing had some issues!
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I'll try to do that later.. I have a few cars that show some great pictures. One shows the silicone actually falling out of shiny paint revealing some messed up swirly paint. I litterally grabbed a chair and just watched as it all outgased out of the paint.
 
I have also had the pleasure of speaking with Kevin Brown (iamwaxman) on the phone a couple of times in the past regarding products and techniques. He is truly one of the 5 or 6 guys I really look up to, and aspire to be as good as one day. He is open and upfront and extremely helpful.



Thanks Kevin, Jason, and Todd for posting this here.



EDIT - Todd - shooting you an email
 
TH0001 said:
...Jason Rose from Meguairs, who again is another guy who has likely forgotten more about true detailing then I know. ...
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Nah, Jason has a really good memory. He never forgets anything. ;)



(And I know you know a lot too.)





PC.
 
So I was just about to claybar a car im working on...I have been using Optimum Instant Detailer & Gloss Enhancer. This has everything in it that were not supposed to be using right?



What should I be using for a lube while clay barring the vehicle that doesnt contain the mentioned chemicals??
 
Very interesting read. Thanks for putting that together Todd. It's great to have Jason and Kevin on the board providing this type of information...
 
Pats300zx said:
Very interesting read. Thanks for putting that together Todd. It's great to have Jason and Kevin on the board providing this type of information...
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I don't know Jason, but I am also glad to see Kevin posting more over here recently!!!
 
Glad to see this thread. I've been talking with people a lot about touchless car washes and their spray waxes causing havoc with some/most compounds. The issue I have now, as rydawg mentioned, is how to remove whatever is on the paint without doubling the time the job would normally require. Products like TAW, prepsol, etc help, but not a great deal.
 
Well, it would make sense that the polymer system of the paint, the steel underneath and plastic panels would expand and contract due to heat and cold. One must remember that everything solid just appears solid. There are tiny empty spaces in and between molecules. Heating the paint by mechanical abrasion due to a foam pad could cause expansion of the paint(I don't think I'd call that swelling). I still don't buy into the claim that solvents themselves can "swell" cured paint. Sure solvents can work their way into microscopic pores but if they really swelled(increased the space between molecules) the paint I'd suspect that they would begin to degrade the paint in some manner. As for oils lets take another analogy-lets consider a jar filled with sand(which is full) and then add some "trade secret" oils. I'd bet that the "trade secret" oils would fill the spaces between the grains of sand. Maybe it's possible that that is what is happening on a microscopic level with paint. As the paint sits out in the sun and heat those oils work their way back to the surface.
 
Hmmm- Let's look at this a different way.



If the body of the car is, in fact, expanding and contracting, but the paint is merely stretching to remain attached...



Wouldn't the paint actually be thinner when the body is expanded, and thicker when contracted? :nervous:



We could test this by simply taking a reading of a panel when cool versus warm.



That being said...

Wouldn't the paint measure as thinner where we just polished it (using a machine & pad that generated heat through friction?



I suppose that if we looked at the paint as-if it was built via cross-links, the links could expand and contract (like inter-twined rubber bands attached like a fishing net).



I picture paint as being void of big spaces or tiny round pores... Not stating that as fact- Just ruminating.



This is a great topic of discussion!
 
Fascinating thread and thanks again to all who contributed. I love the science of this stuff and unfortunately won't live enough days ahead to figure all this out!
 
iamwaxman said:
Hmmm- Let's look at this a different way.



If the body of the car is, in fact, expanding and contracting, but the paint is merely stretching to remain attached...



Wouldn't the paint actually be thinner when the body is expanded, and thicker when contracted? :nervous:
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Usually non-metallics have a higher coefficient of thermal expansion (CTE) than metals, and since a piece of sheetmetal like a car hood is much, much larger in the lateral dimensions than it is in thickness, so yes, the paint could be stretched, thinner if the metal is hot, but the paint will also be getting thicker (as the metal will be) as it gets hot.



The thing is if the steel (using a steel hood example) is 4' wide but only .030 thick, and it expands 5%, it will grow only .0015 in thickness, but .200 in width. For whatever that is worth, probably nothing.
 
Well, it's a definite that steel expands with heat. I saw a show on the discovery channel that they determined the expansion rate of the steel for the Golden Gate Bridge so that as the sun warmed the steel it would expand enough to drop the bolts in to connect both sides.



And if plastics expand more than steel that would explain why some are having less durability on plastic panels vs steel.



Based on what I've read the paint system is polymer based so if it can stretch then it would reason that sealants attached to the paint would stretch as well.
 
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