3M Ultrafina, on a scale of 1-10
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David Fermani
Forza Auto Salon
Some interesting threads on fillers & solvent wipe downs. Pay close attention to what Jason Rose says:
http://www.autopia.org/forum/machin...spective-paint-defect-return-interesting.html
http://www.autopia.org/forum/car-detailing-product-discussion/117635-ipa-105-205-a.html
http://www.autopia.org/forum/machin...spective-paint-defect-return-interesting.html
http://www.autopia.org/forum/car-detailing-product-discussion/117635-ipa-105-205-a.html
Todd@RUPES
Just a regular guy
The whole ‘filler’ debate can be both frustrating and confusing. With any polish, at any given time, despite perfecting our technique to the umpteenth degree we can all experience filling that is literally out of our control.
It has been my experience that 3M Ultrafina/Ultrafine polish is no exception and is likely to have some level of filling as it does leave behind a very tough and durable film on the paint. Whether any defects return after the film is removed will depend on how well the paint is polished underneath. Ultrafina/e absolutely has the ability to leave a ‘perfect’ (as defined by having no visible marring in direct sunlight) finish with good technique on most paint systems with out issue.
I have been as frustrated with the whole filling thing as anybody, which is why I have researched it pretty thoroughly, although I still have far from all the answers. To be honest I have more questions then answers. If anything I say is incorrect I am open to learning more so please feel free to jump in!
Most polishes fill primarily because they use various types of petroleum distillates as a carrier for the solid abrasives. These carriers have to adhere to the paint somewhat so that the polish can be worked against the paint instead of pushed across it. If a foam pad moving across the paint at roughly 1,500 feet a minute (6 inch pad @ 1000 rpm) under pressure cannot move the oil off the paint then a micro fiber rag and your hand is going to have a hard time.
This isn’t to say that some polishers are harder to remove then others, but if the oils in the polish are doing a good enough job to allow you to create a visually perfect finish while moving abrasive grains across the paint, they are likely going to be difficult to remove completely with out using a clean micro fiber (and switching to a clean one often) . To make matters worse, some oils and carriers can bond to the paint and be very difficult to remove, particularly when applied with heat and pressure. Given the huge variety of paint systems (and the variables inherent to their application) can lead to some products unintentionally filling on particular paints.
I have experienced Ultrafina filling prior and have seen it do a pretty admiral job of concealing some pretty severe defects on certain paints, recently with David Fermani. Like just about anything related to detailing, there are no hard rules. I have also seen Ultrafina fail to hide even the faintest micro marring. It’s the reasons most professional detailers that I know keep a somewhat varied arsenal of products: Something’s just don’t work on some paints.
Another reason that you can get (unintentional) filling is because polishing paint can cause the paint to expand slightly (similar to how it expands in direct sunlight). If you think about wrinkles on the top of your wrist: Pull the skin tight (apart) and the wrinkles disappear.
Now there are a number of techniques we can all use to make sure defects don’t come back, but nothing is full proof.
Inspect the paint after each step of polishing. Even this isn’t as straight forward as we like it. Certain polishes (applied in certain ways on certain paints) can be difficult to remove with certain products and easier to remove certain products. This can flip-flop depending on the infinite number of variables. I used to use solvent frequently, but now use a 70 percent alcohol wipe-down as my mainstay. Some polishes can take multiple wipe downs.
Speaking of alcohol wipe downs, even they aren’t effective all of the time, but they do require a certain technique. Misting the surface with spray then wiping like a window may not work. As the alcohol evaporates, or as the towel becomes soiled with residue, you can end up re-depositing the product you are trying to remove. Liberally soak the panel with alcohol then agitate with a micro fiber cloth , then wipe clean with a fresh, clean micro fiber. Flip your towels (wiping and cleaning) frequently. Sometimes certain strength mixes of alcohol can act funny on certain paints with certain polishes. If there is too much alcohol it can flash off very quickly leaving a cloudy, difficult film of product behind, if it is not strong enough it can be like wiping the paint with.
Which leads to the other issue on this thread. Can a product survive multiple wiped owns with a strong solvent but be removed with soap/water? After doing this full time for the last three years, I would say absolutely. When we remove anything from the surface we have to release it, then find a way of a removing it. If the solvent is flashing quickly, the product could be re-deposited before it is removed. Also, some products are extremely chemical resistant but can be removed easily with abrasion, and vice a versa.
As far as David suggesting that Ultrafina can survive paint thinner wipe downs, I would say that most of the time it would wipe right off. However, I believe he is referring to a Rolls Royce Drophead that we polished last month. We didn’t have a lot of time (a lot of work lined up) so I started with Ultrafina on a black 3M waffle pad to see what it would do. It made the finish look amazing, in one pass, with no holograms. If you would have seen the condition of the paint before common sense would dictate that this was nearly impossible unless the paint was butter soft. We wiped the test spot with alcohol, perfect. A second wipe down: perfect. David had some solvent (it might have been paint thinner, I didn’t read the label) and wiped it, perfect. We shrugged and figured it was our lucky day.
We pulled the Phantom in his garage and washed it with dawn, dried it, and we noticed almost all of the scratches returned, even in the light of his garage… Weird? Yes, but I am sure that many of us have experienced just weird stuff that flying in the face of logic. Apparently the dawn in combination with the agitation of being washed, removed the product, and the water flooded it away. Maybe the paint temporarily swollen?
So at the end of the day there are just to many variables to make concrete statements. If Ultrafina/e works well with your situation then more power to you, that’s all that matters. My two cents on the whole discussion.
It has been my experience that 3M Ultrafina/Ultrafine polish is no exception and is likely to have some level of filling as it does leave behind a very tough and durable film on the paint. Whether any defects return after the film is removed will depend on how well the paint is polished underneath. Ultrafina/e absolutely has the ability to leave a ‘perfect’ (as defined by having no visible marring in direct sunlight) finish with good technique on most paint systems with out issue.
I have been as frustrated with the whole filling thing as anybody, which is why I have researched it pretty thoroughly, although I still have far from all the answers. To be honest I have more questions then answers. If anything I say is incorrect I am open to learning more so please feel free to jump in!
Most polishes fill primarily because they use various types of petroleum distillates as a carrier for the solid abrasives. These carriers have to adhere to the paint somewhat so that the polish can be worked against the paint instead of pushed across it. If a foam pad moving across the paint at roughly 1,500 feet a minute (6 inch pad @ 1000 rpm) under pressure cannot move the oil off the paint then a micro fiber rag and your hand is going to have a hard time.
This isn’t to say that some polishers are harder to remove then others, but if the oils in the polish are doing a good enough job to allow you to create a visually perfect finish while moving abrasive grains across the paint, they are likely going to be difficult to remove completely with out using a clean micro fiber (and switching to a clean one often) . To make matters worse, some oils and carriers can bond to the paint and be very difficult to remove, particularly when applied with heat and pressure. Given the huge variety of paint systems (and the variables inherent to their application) can lead to some products unintentionally filling on particular paints.
I have experienced Ultrafina filling prior and have seen it do a pretty admiral job of concealing some pretty severe defects on certain paints, recently with David Fermani. Like just about anything related to detailing, there are no hard rules. I have also seen Ultrafina fail to hide even the faintest micro marring. It’s the reasons most professional detailers that I know keep a somewhat varied arsenal of products: Something’s just don’t work on some paints.
Another reason that you can get (unintentional) filling is because polishing paint can cause the paint to expand slightly (similar to how it expands in direct sunlight). If you think about wrinkles on the top of your wrist: Pull the skin tight (apart) and the wrinkles disappear.
Now there are a number of techniques we can all use to make sure defects don’t come back, but nothing is full proof.
Inspect the paint after each step of polishing. Even this isn’t as straight forward as we like it. Certain polishes (applied in certain ways on certain paints) can be difficult to remove with certain products and easier to remove certain products. This can flip-flop depending on the infinite number of variables. I used to use solvent frequently, but now use a 70 percent alcohol wipe-down as my mainstay. Some polishes can take multiple wipe downs.
Speaking of alcohol wipe downs, even they aren’t effective all of the time, but they do require a certain technique. Misting the surface with spray then wiping like a window may not work. As the alcohol evaporates, or as the towel becomes soiled with residue, you can end up re-depositing the product you are trying to remove. Liberally soak the panel with alcohol then agitate with a micro fiber cloth , then wipe clean with a fresh, clean micro fiber. Flip your towels (wiping and cleaning) frequently. Sometimes certain strength mixes of alcohol can act funny on certain paints with certain polishes. If there is too much alcohol it can flash off very quickly leaving a cloudy, difficult film of product behind, if it is not strong enough it can be like wiping the paint with.
Which leads to the other issue on this thread. Can a product survive multiple wiped owns with a strong solvent but be removed with soap/water? After doing this full time for the last three years, I would say absolutely. When we remove anything from the surface we have to release it, then find a way of a removing it. If the solvent is flashing quickly, the product could be re-deposited before it is removed. Also, some products are extremely chemical resistant but can be removed easily with abrasion, and vice a versa.
As far as David suggesting that Ultrafina can survive paint thinner wipe downs, I would say that most of the time it would wipe right off. However, I believe he is referring to a Rolls Royce Drophead that we polished last month. We didn’t have a lot of time (a lot of work lined up) so I started with Ultrafina on a black 3M waffle pad to see what it would do. It made the finish look amazing, in one pass, with no holograms. If you would have seen the condition of the paint before common sense would dictate that this was nearly impossible unless the paint was butter soft. We wiped the test spot with alcohol, perfect. A second wipe down: perfect. David had some solvent (it might have been paint thinner, I didn’t read the label) and wiped it, perfect. We shrugged and figured it was our lucky day.
We pulled the Phantom in his garage and washed it with dawn, dried it, and we noticed almost all of the scratches returned, even in the light of his garage… Weird? Yes, but I am sure that many of us have experienced just weird stuff that flying in the face of logic. Apparently the dawn in combination with the agitation of being washed, removed the product, and the water flooded it away. Maybe the paint temporarily swollen?
So at the end of the day there are just to many variables to make concrete statements. If Ultrafina/e works well with your situation then more power to you, that’s all that matters. My two cents on the whole discussion.
sulla said:
You are a fool. You still think using panels and hoods from the scrap yard to try things on is stupid. I suppose you just jump right in on people's cars and experiment on them. Using parts of cars from the scarp yard is actually very common. If I remember correctly that big wax test that was done here years ago was done on a scrap hood or something like that. That's the test that made P21s famous since it scored high or won in that test. There are also many threads on here with people recommending to others to practice on scrap pieces from cars. If you actually thought about it instead of piling on with the band wagon boys you would see it's actually a good idea you fool.
RaskyR1
Rasky's Auto Detailing
Very informative post Todd! :xyxthumbs
David Fermani
Forza Auto Salon
Anthony A said:
Anthony A said:
Anthony A said:
tdekany said:
Speaking of people here responsible for starting myths & Detailing World, I found this thread to be very informative to the OT:
AIO Shootout Part 1 - DodoJuice, Autoglym, BiltHamber & TurtleWax - Detailing World
I have to say the AutoGlym Super Resin Polish is much stronger than a .5 !!! UltraFina can't do that.
Here's what SRP did on this Aston:
David Fermani said:Speaking of people here responsible for starting myths & Detailing World, I found this thread to be very informative to the OT:
AIO Shootout Part 1 - DodoJuice, Autoglym, BiltHamber & TurtleWax - Detailing World
I have to say the AutoGlym Super Resin Polish is much stronger than a .5 !!! UltraFina can't do that.
Here's what SRP did on this Aston:
The person who started this thread said SRP was .5 not me. I said UF has more cut than SRP and it does for me.
That thread from Deatilingworld has nothing got do with this thread. The guy didn't use UF in his tests so what was I supposed to get out of it? He tested some AIO products by hand.
Why don't you link this thread on there and see what they think about your paint thinner claims. I'm sure they would get a laugh.
Why don't you explain the paint thinner claim?
Tuck91
New member
Shut the hell up Anthony A.
Or go be someones little junkyard detailing *****.
Or go be someones little junkyard detailing *****.
Shutter said:
I wondered when you would grace this thread with your stupidity.
Another loser mocking me because I have the sense to use some panels from scrap cars to experiment on. Unbelievable. I think there have been 3 maybe 4 retards who have mocked that in this thread. I don't think they know why they are mocking it they just seem to follow the retard in front of them.
Do a search for "scrap yard" on here. Tons of threads with very well known and respected detailers suggesting going to a scrap yard to get scrap panels or in some cases whole scrap cars to practice on. It is IDIOTIC to learn some things on a good car. That is not where you want to make your mistakes. The fact that I have to explain this to some proves you are fools. Since you are fools and probably can't use the search I did it for you.
http://www.autopia.org/forum/search.php?searchid=363157
I would love to see these guys the first time they use a rotary or wet sand. They going to do it on an actual car? They are actually mocking practicing. Can you believe that? I don't know maybe they will go to town on mommy's car. Maybe thats what cool people do.
Tuck91
New member
Well, you graced this thread with nine pages of your stupidity. Whos the bigger idiot?
Tuck91
New member
Anthony A said:
That your a dumb POS and are an embarrasment to this forum.
I think several others in this thread have stated something to that affect already though.
Barry Theal
New member
To the OP I have never used SRP so I can't compare the the two. I can tell you that I personally think Ultrafina has such a minimal abrasive in it that why why you need it?
If I may chime in on the whole filling thing with Ultrafina. I have found this product to fill. To me this product is a waste of time and money. When it come to TRUE correction which I personally feel very few completely understand what truely corrected paint looks like and feels like. It takes a trained eye and years of experiance to fully understand this, so Ill try to keep it simple, plus I'm not that best at typing. When it comes to correction your goal is to level the paint perfectly flat. The more refined and milled the surface is the more gloss can be acheived. For years I used to think that a final polish was a must for true correction and shine. Persay you could really amp up the gloss on a black car with Ultrafina then use a a quick detailer wipe it clean and then wax it. For a while the paint will look amazing, but is it true? Is it the carrier oils left behind and massaged into the paint or is it a perfectly milled flat surface? Thats the importance of cleaning the paint. While some have used IPA, Solvents, Thinners, I can remember using window cleaner with amonia in the old days, Yes it is possible for some polishes to last threw all types of paint cleaners.
These days some of things I have been capable of doing with just one product are blowing me away. I would say on the last several cars that I have done. Ones worth doing anyways have not received nothing more then M105. This was done on hard paint and some nice soft paint like BMW Jet Black. I used to think that a dimishing product was the way to go, but at what point does the abrasive diminsh and the polish is nothing more the a carrier oil? Now on the flipside How can a Non Diminish abbrasive finish down so perfect? Think about it the abbraisve would never dissapear yet its so perfectly tuned that is will finish better then a product the the abbraisves diminsh? These are the things that when fully understood with an open mind will make a talented detailer,great. THere is a big difference between being a great internet detailer and marketer and a detailer who fully understands paint correction! I have recently corrected a car that was finished with chemical guys EZ Creme glaze. I now know personally the filling potentials this products has. Many say it cleans paint great with no filling. Maybe they should think of this. Any product if massage into the paint will give the illusion that that paint has been cleaned, but its not. What these products actually do is massage the fillers into remaing microscopic scrathes that trick the untrained eye to think they are removed yet they are just filled in. Before applying a LSP the paint should be squeaky clean, free of oils. It shouldn't be slick or anything.
When doing a 3 stage polishing The first step should be to level the paint to the point that it may actually look worse then it did before you even started. Persay when using a wool pad and a heavier compound it will level paint fast leaving behind marring induced by the pad and product. Depending on the shill level of the technition it may also leave behind holograms from unequally applied pressure. The second is designed to remove all marring left behind from the first step. At this point the paint should be treuly correctted. If a third step is need its usally to remove holograms from the unevenly applied pressure. This is where ultrafina is great because it has carrier oils that allow you to work the paint with no pressure applied allowing for the holograms to disappear while in the meantime it will fill in any such micro marring left behind. This will give the illusion of a flawless paint. In true, Is it corrected at this point? Or did the oils just mask the defects. It my opinion it just mask the defects.
Plus by doing a IPA wipedown you will lose some gloss and remove the fillers left behind. There are so many varibles that come into play with correction that its is virtually impossible to sit here and argue about who is right and who is wrong. After all, we all do things differently, while trying to follow the guidelines left behind for us by our mentors or teachers. What I have these days is that polishing a car is a waste. If one would begin to fully uinderstand the technology of M105 and how versatile it is. You will understand what I mean. Just this past week I have been working with a gentleman on machine polishing and explaining all this crap to him and today he finished down with m105 and was amazed. He has no experiance prior to me, yet by listening and understanding he made it almost look easy. Good luck to the OP with your choice, But may I suggest trying to full y understand all aspects of paint correction. DOn't just do it, understand what your actaully doing. Also keep an open mind for thinking outside the box.
If I may chime in on the whole filling thing with Ultrafina. I have found this product to fill. To me this product is a waste of time and money. When it come to TRUE correction which I personally feel very few completely understand what truely corrected paint looks like and feels like. It takes a trained eye and years of experiance to fully understand this, so Ill try to keep it simple, plus I'm not that best at typing. When it comes to correction your goal is to level the paint perfectly flat. The more refined and milled the surface is the more gloss can be acheived. For years I used to think that a final polish was a must for true correction and shine. Persay you could really amp up the gloss on a black car with Ultrafina then use a a quick detailer wipe it clean and then wax it. For a while the paint will look amazing, but is it true? Is it the carrier oils left behind and massaged into the paint or is it a perfectly milled flat surface? Thats the importance of cleaning the paint. While some have used IPA, Solvents, Thinners, I can remember using window cleaner with amonia in the old days, Yes it is possible for some polishes to last threw all types of paint cleaners.
These days some of things I have been capable of doing with just one product are blowing me away. I would say on the last several cars that I have done. Ones worth doing anyways have not received nothing more then M105. This was done on hard paint and some nice soft paint like BMW Jet Black. I used to think that a dimishing product was the way to go, but at what point does the abrasive diminsh and the polish is nothing more the a carrier oil? Now on the flipside How can a Non Diminish abbrasive finish down so perfect? Think about it the abbraisve would never dissapear yet its so perfectly tuned that is will finish better then a product the the abbraisves diminsh? These are the things that when fully understood with an open mind will make a talented detailer,great. THere is a big difference between being a great internet detailer and marketer and a detailer who fully understands paint correction! I have recently corrected a car that was finished with chemical guys EZ Creme glaze. I now know personally the filling potentials this products has. Many say it cleans paint great with no filling. Maybe they should think of this. Any product if massage into the paint will give the illusion that that paint has been cleaned, but its not. What these products actually do is massage the fillers into remaing microscopic scrathes that trick the untrained eye to think they are removed yet they are just filled in. Before applying a LSP the paint should be squeaky clean, free of oils. It shouldn't be slick or anything.
When doing a 3 stage polishing The first step should be to level the paint to the point that it may actually look worse then it did before you even started. Persay when using a wool pad and a heavier compound it will level paint fast leaving behind marring induced by the pad and product. Depending on the shill level of the technition it may also leave behind holograms from unequally applied pressure. The second is designed to remove all marring left behind from the first step. At this point the paint should be treuly correctted. If a third step is need its usally to remove holograms from the unevenly applied pressure. This is where ultrafina is great because it has carrier oils that allow you to work the paint with no pressure applied allowing for the holograms to disappear while in the meantime it will fill in any such micro marring left behind. This will give the illusion of a flawless paint. In true, Is it corrected at this point? Or did the oils just mask the defects. It my opinion it just mask the defects.
Plus by doing a IPA wipedown you will lose some gloss and remove the fillers left behind. There are so many varibles that come into play with correction that its is virtually impossible to sit here and argue about who is right and who is wrong. After all, we all do things differently, while trying to follow the guidelines left behind for us by our mentors or teachers. What I have these days is that polishing a car is a waste. If one would begin to fully uinderstand the technology of M105 and how versatile it is. You will understand what I mean. Just this past week I have been working with a gentleman on machine polishing and explaining all this crap to him and today he finished down with m105 and was amazed. He has no experiance prior to me, yet by listening and understanding he made it almost look easy. Good luck to the OP with your choice, But may I suggest trying to full y understand all aspects of paint correction. DOn't just do it, understand what your actaully doing. Also keep an open mind for thinking outside the box.
Thank you so much to those of you that helped me. I really am grateful for the information. Even the times this thread got off topic, I learned from those too. I started this thread because I have some extremely light but noticeable and very hard to get rid of hologramming left over on my Acura.
:thx
Also, WOW, this thread blew up!
:thx
Also, WOW, this thread blew up!
Barry Theal said:
Do you think the fillers in UF can take multiple applications of paint thinner and not be removed?
You think UF is waste. What would you suggest someone use when the paint has very light marring? You suggest going at that with 105:think: UF works well for me in that situation. The marring does not return and something like 105 is overkill in that situation. I don't doubt your skills are good enough to finish with 105 and have the paint look great but for light marring it's overkill.
Barry Theal
New member
Anthony A said:
Yes I do.
Anthony A said:
Anthony I can fully understand if ultrafina works for you. We all have our own methods. To be honest I own Ultrafina as well as many other products. I beleive if you are doing this for a profession you should have many products in your lineup. As not all products, combinations, work well with all paints. Please take in mind I have read this entire thread and if you choose to argue with me I will sipmle just ignore you. I mean no harm in what I'm saying just trying to offer my experiance. FOr light marring is M105 over kill? Keep in mind M105 has some of the most finely milled abrasives in it that it will level paint fast and it will also finish down perfect with proper methods. Persay why not just use a little less product and a softer pad to get the desired results. You can also add some water to make it more workable like a final polish. Thats what I meant by thinking outside the box.
sulla said:
I have been called many names in this thread and no one seems to mind that. POS, arse, ***** are just a few. I will only take so much before I retaliate so yeah I called some names back what do you expect when I get attacked?
I was even attacked for suggesting to learn on scrap pieces. A suggestion by the I got from this forum. It has been suggested by many well known detailers on here. When I mentioned I practice or experiment on scrap I get attacked by obvious trolls.
The paint thinner wipe down challenge is certainly not pathetic. Everybody I have talked to about it finds it to be an outrageous claim and thinks it's pathetic that nobody else challenged it.
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