2008 Hillary For President

MrRogue said:
ok reason, Ill start off saying she wants to raise taxes, and has serious family problems. I also wouldn't vote because she is a gun-banner and tries to pass her anti-gun legislation through the senate. That among other issues are the reasons I would not vote for her.

Her being a woman wouldn't be one of them, would it? As far as her having serious family problems: there are a lot of people who go to work every day who have had serious family problems. How many people do you work with or do business with who have been divorced? Does that marital status make them unqualified to do their jobs?

Charles
[Just saying...]
 
No it does not have anything to do with it. I would vote for Condi and Ann Coulter in a heartbeat. Its the issues that make me vote or not vote for someone. I love how that comes up everytime someone says they won't vote for Hillary. Someone just did a poll and 50% of america said they would Never vote for her. My guess is that half the country is not sexist or whatever, they just don't like her views on the important subjects, and I am one of them.

Nick
[Just saying....]

Oh and saying "just saying" doesn't give you the right to call me a sexist, And I do take offense to it.
 
MrRogue said:
Nick
[Just saying....]

Oh and saying "just saying" doesn't give you the right to call me a sexist, And I do take offense to it.

I didn't call you a sexist. I was asking whether you were one, based on your statement. It is good to know that you are not.

I'm sorry that I offended you!

Charles
 
Certainly not a fan of Sen. Clinton, yet I find it fascinating at the number of people who when faced with her as an option quickly invoke the name of Dr. Condoleeza Rice (not Condolisa or even Condi) as a viable candidate. Yet not one ever seems to list even one skill which would qualify her for the position as president. She has thus far been totally ineffective in each of her White House appointments. Her performance as SoS has been so lackluster that even the conservative talk show hosts are wishing aloud for the return of Colin Powell (I know I join in that refrain). Her alleged area of expertise as we recall was cold war era US-Soviet relations, even that knowledge proved somewhat suspect during the declining days of Gorbachev. The only thing she has proven to be is a blind loyalist to the policies of Bush. Stay the course even if it's wrong. Although while serving as Bush's NSA, she flip-flopped more times than Bush accussed Kerry on the White House's stance on pre and post 9/11.

Dwayne, as a conservative (regardless of part affiliation), it comes as no surprise that you would not be a fan of George W. Just speaking from a fiscal pov, and ignoring social/global politics he is a disaster.

One thing that perplexes me, is why can't either party muster up better candidates to put forth for possibly the first or second most important job in the land -- that is allowing the possibility that the Chairman of the FRS is equally as powerful as some may assert. That challenge is extended to the Libertarian party or other Independent party.
 
TrueDetailer said:
Oh and mr. bush is soooo much better. He can't even run his own country let alone Another one.


Its all good though, no need to turn this into a bashing thread. I just find some of your responses a big joke.

Oh George Bush is incredibly better than Hillary, are you kidding me? Not to bash on you or anything but I think George Bush has done a good job of running this country. There's no way Hillary is going to become president of this country. I can't even speak my mind about her on this forum because of the rules but she's a complete @$#&*$@&*^$^%#@^%$@*(:">" :ass :bump :image :confused: :ass :ass :ass
I don't even want to go into the details on politics here.
And glad to see that there's NRA members here. :2santa
 
F-150 said:
Not to bash on you or anything but I think George Bush has done a good job of running this country.


Everyone has their opinion and i respect that. I guess your part of that 30% who still beleive in the man. Good thing this is his last term.


Mr. Clean said:
Certainly not a fan of Sen. Clinton, yet I find it fascinating at the number of people who when faced with her as an option quickly invoke the name of Dr. Condoleeza Rice (not Condolisa or even Condi) as a viable candidate. Yet not one ever seems to list even one skill which would qualify her for the position as president. She has thus far been totally ineffective in each of her White House appointments. Her performance as SoS has been so lackluster that even the conservative talk show hosts are wishing aloud for the return of Colin Powell (I know I join in that refrain). Her alleged area of expertise as we recall was cold war era US-Soviet relations, even that knowledge proved somewhat suspect during the declining days of Gorbachev. The only thing she has proven to be is a blind loyalist to the policies of Bush. Stay the course even if it's wrong. Although while serving as Bush's NSA, she flip-flopped more times than Bush accussed Kerry on the White House's stance on pre and post 9/11.

Dwayne, as a conservative (regardless of part affiliation), it comes as no surprise that you would not be a fan of George W. Just speaking from a fiscal pov, and ignoring social/global politics he is a disaster.

One thing that perplexes me, is why can't either party muster up better candidates to put forth for possibly the first or second most important job in the land -- that is allowing the possibility that the Chairman of the FRS is equally as powerful as some may assert. That challenge is extended to the Libertarian party or other Independent party. .

I'm glad someone has some sense around here. I agree strongly with just about everything you have said.
 
TrueDetailer said:
Everyone has their opinion and i respect that. I guess your part of that 30% who still beleive in the man. Good thing this is his last term.
Funny thing that you mention that, just to clarify, I am part of the 60 % of this country that believe in Bush, check out the last election, George won buddy. But yeah everyone's got an opinion. Politics creates too many arguments.
 
Well, I did not mean to cause this hail storm of opinions, I posted the link because I thought it was funny! Here is my opinion on the subject. I am a conservative (conservatism happens to reside, for the most part, in the Republican party, so i am Rep.) Now my opinion on Hillary for Prez. I believe that she was the one calling the shots in her hubby's 8 years as president and therefore has already served, now with that said let me inform you a little of his (her) accomplishments: He and that beloved boob Jimmy Carter struck the deal with North Korea to get them to stop their nuke program, that worked well din't it. Now we have a North Korea on the verge of nukes that GW has to deal with. Next, when Bill (Hill) took office in 1993 the Chinese could not get a rocket off the launch pad, but by the end of "their " term the chinese could lauch spy sattelites into space and they have the capability of hitting any part of the continental US with a missile armed with nukes, thank you Bill and Hill. You see brother Bill relaxed the restrictions on US companies so that they could go abroad and help the chinese with their rocket and missile programs. Also, Bill was offered Osama bin Laden from the Sudan, but he refused to get him because he did not have the legal right to take him, now GW is dealing with that ongoing problem. Next, Bill thought that we needed regime change in Iraq, and in late 1998 launched some cruise missiles into some empty buildings (except for the poor custodial staff that got it), of course he only launched those to get attention from another little deal he had going down, Monica ring any bells. So, GW was left to clean up that mess also. These are the reasons I would never vote for Hillary for dog catcher much less the presidency. I will say that you can keep a close eye on the senator from VA, George Allen, he is sharp, believes in the 2nd amendment and is a fiscal and social conservative, GO GEORGE!!!!!!!!!
 
Why are conservatives on the defensive here? It was an anti-Hillary cartoon.

See, here in Canada, we can make fun of everyone equally. That's not true. Usually the leaders (your equivalent of Bush, Condi & the Gang) are much more goofy and make-funable. It's great here. In the States, you guys are all serious about politics and actually think it makes a difference. Very noble. Very weird.

FWIW, Bush might be doing a good job running the country. It's running the world that most of us have an issue with. And I have my doubts that Hillary will be able to wear that outfit in the primaries.
 
Mr. Clean said:
Certainly not a fan of Sen. Clinton, yet I find it fascinating at the number of people who when faced with her as an option quickly invoke the name of Dr. Condoleeza Rice (not Condolisa or even Condi) as a viable candidate. Yet not one ever seems to list even one skill which would qualify her for the position as president. She has thus far been totally ineffective in each of her White House appointments. Her performance as SoS has been so lackluster that even the conservative talk show hosts are wishing aloud for the return of Colin Powell (I know I join in that refrain). Her alleged area of expertise as we recall was cold war era US-Soviet relations, even that knowledge proved somewhat suspect during the declining days of Gorbachev. The only thing she has proven to be is a blind loyalist to the policies of Bush. Stay the course even if it's wrong. Although while serving as Bush's NSA, she flip-flopped more times than Bush accussed Kerry on the White House's stance on pre and post 9/11.

Dwayne, as a conservative (regardless of part affiliation), it comes as no surprise that you would not be a fan of George W. Just speaking from a fiscal pov, and ignoring social/global politics he is a disaster.

One thing that perplexes me, is why can't either party muster up better candidates to put forth for possibly the first or second most important job in the land -- that is allowing the possibility that the Chairman of the FRS is equally as powerful as some may assert. That challenge is extended to the Libertarian party or other Independent party.


Ditto , you took the words right out of my mouth.
 
F-150 said:
...I think George Bush has done a good job of running this country...
Just out of curiosity, can you give me 1 or 2 things that have been done for the betterment of this country as a result of Bush’s leadership? Over the span of his almost two terms a clear and present domestic policy would be hard for me to pinpoint.

F-150 said:
...Funny thing that you mention that, just to clarify, I am part of the 60 % of this country that believe in Bush, check out the last election, George won buddy. ...
I believe the reference was to the approval ratings, the last poll I saw was 37/57 percent approve/disapprove.

Sparkie said:
…: He and that beloved boob Jimmy Carter struck the deal with North Korea to get them to stop their nuke program, that worked well din't it. Now we have a North Korea on the verge of nukes that GW has to deal with.
A quick look at your history book will tell you that the North Korea problem has existed since the ‘50s. For the most part the U.S. presidents have mostly ignored the country. Ike may have wanted or even threatened to bomb it. Both Clinton and Bush took the same path during their first terms. Clinton did address the situation in his second term; the events are available for lookup for any who are truly interested. Bush has not been any more pro-active in dealing with North Korea than any of his predecessors.

Sparkie said:
…: Next, when Bill (Hill) took office in 1993 the Chinese could not get a rocket off the launch pad, but by the end of "their " term the chinese could lauch spy sattelites into space and they have the capability of hitting any part of the continental US with a missile armed with nukes, thank you Bill and Hill. You see brother Bill relaxed the restrictions on US companies so that they could go abroad and help the chinese with their rocket and missile programs.
Again, lots to discuss about our country’s relations with China. I will say that I couldn’t tell that Bush is too upset with our current relations.

Sparkie said:
Also, Bill was offered Osama bin Laden from the Sudan, but he refused to get him because he did not have the legal right to take him, now GW is dealing with that ongoing problem.
There are some reports which refute this claim as made by the likes of Hannity and Limbaugh. Was this covered in the 9/11 commission’s report? From what I have seen the Sudanese did possibly attempt to provide intelligence files on bin Laden to the Clinton administration.

Sparkie said:
Next, Bill thought that we needed regime change in Iraq, and in late 1998 launched some cruise missiles into some empty buildings (except for the poor custodial staff that got it), of course he only launched those to get attention from another little deal he had going down, Monica ring any bells. So, GW was left to clean up that mess also.
Clinton and his administration did believe a regime change was needed, but the bombings you mention had nothing to do with attempting to effect that change. In ’98 Clinton (joined by Britain) did authorize the bombing of what turned out to be a pharmaceutical plant in Iraq, according to him based on intelligence which said that the factory was being used to manufacture chemical, nuclear, and or biological materials. Also around that same time period he bombed Afghanistan in an attempt to get bin Laden. On the plant in Iraq, you could say bad intelligence, and in Afghanistan bad luck.
 
Mr. Clean knows his stuff

People need to stop listening with their ears and start listening with their eyes. These politicians are going to tell you what THEY want you to hear not what you want to hear. This is why people need to do their own research.
 
Some good reading so far...

I feel we need a fundamental change in politics.

Term limits for both the house and the senate. This will remove career politicians and get fresh blood in the places they are needed. This fresh blood will bring in the true needs of the beleaguered American people. Current politicians are out of touch with us common folk. Term limits will get rid of Senator Byrd and at one time Senator Thurmond (god rest is soul). Tell me how those types have there thumb on the pulse of the people when they barely have a pulse. This will also help reduce the influence of special interest groups. These are the folks that have the real power in America. The have the cash and the government on their side.

Campaign finance reform... It takes a ridiculous amount of money to win even local elections. Where is that money coming from? People who have it and want something in return. Eliminate this and big oil will lose some clout. Our government is here to facilitate business, when in fact their business should be to facilitate the people. Business should be a by product of a free society rather than legislated.

Fiscal responsibility... It's our money and we have no say so in how it's spent. We entrust our money with elected stewards that feel pork and special interests are more important. No way should we fund some of the programs that get attached to important legislation. As for facts I can't point out any recent type of misspending, though a few years back the government funded a program for gender reassignment patients to have therapy. Why should my tax dollars go there than to a military family on food stamps?

Our system was formed when modes of travel and correspondence were primitive to say the least. Now in the information age we can and should expect a better government. How I'm not sure but we can figure something out and make it better. What's happening now is not working.

Judicial system... Government makes laws. Courts determine constitutionality of the laws and the guilt or innocence of the accused. The courts should not be allowed to overturn laws and set case law from the bench. For example a state law determines something. A court overturns the law by a landmark decision. The courts don't have the power to rewrite the law. Most judges are more times than not appointed and have no elections to be held accountable to the people. Then they go off in left field and override laws created by elected officials in government. Where is that check and balance

Taxes... Again we should have more say so in how the money is spent. What's not spent should be given back. The government should only take what is needed to run the government minus the pork spending. Line item veto should be available.

Foreign aid... Keep the money where it's needed and appreciated.

Now for the candidates.

Shame on me cause Bush fooled me twice. I think that's what he was trying to say a few years back. I don't understand him. He stands on a smoking rubble pile in NY and give a great speech then turns his back on us. His domestic agenda oh wait what domestic agenda. When is the last time we heard about no child left behind? When is the last time he spoke about Americans going back to work? We hear about folks the will do the work we won't.

Why does he support free trade and take jobs away from America? Ask anyone in the south that worked for the textile mills. I know, I know... as capitalists we want the lowest prices for goods, even if it means closing down American plants to go overseas and buy cheaper products. I should be happy as a consumer that my made in china t shirt was only a few pennies to make and I'm still paying the same price as I would if it were made in America. We need to get our sense of pride back!

Where are those highly skilled high paying jobs you promised? He said he would eliminate low skilled low paying jobs and replace them with better jobs. Well salaries went down $10,000 a year and no benes with his jobs plan.

Why is he so loyal to big business? I realize America has to be a place where businesses want to do business but at what cost?

Why is he always on vacation? Why did he let Iraq fall apart? Why doesn't he feel the need to explain his actions to the American people? He rarely gives interviews.

I'm not an environmentalist but maybe we should start looking at things. Where's the big push for alternative fuel vehicles? If he wants to stop terror get us off of foreign oil now.

As for Hillary... Here we go. It appears to me that some Democrats embrace socialist ideals as the norm. These are some of the same principles we fought wars over. I'm sorry this is America where hard work should pay off. A little thing in business called profit motive. If there is no profit then there is no drive to stay in business. Why should everyone have the same regardless of how hard one works. Should a doctor subsidize my salary because I chose to not go to college? Nope. I made my choice and now its up to me to make the best of it. That takes hard work and dedication.

I really don't have specifics on here political views. First the media protects her. I do feel that if elected, she'll be more centrist than radical. Look at Bush, he's alienated the base of his party.

I'm not for guaranteed health care and welfare at all. I do have a problem with homeless and sick children. As a great society we shouldn't have this. If she can fix that, well that speaks volumes to me.

America is falling apart. The rich are getting tons richer and the rest of us are footing the bill. Look at the minimum wage (which us republicans just voted against raising, why to help business) and then look at the price of a gallon of milk or gas. It doesn't add up. Add to that the skyrocketing costs of real estate and college. How are we going to survive?

...Anyway it was a funny cartoon.
 
Scrub, good talking points.

I struggle with the idea of term limits for senators and congressional reps. Of course they do have term limits, and in theory if they are not meeting the people’s expectations their term limits are set when they are not re-elected. On the other hand we have often seen the power of being the incumbent. I just can’t come to a right answer for that situation. One are where term limits are definitely needed are in the judiciary, there is no way that any judge federal or supreme court that merits a lifetime position. Term limits and mandatory retirement ages should be enacted.

We have turned into a nation of special interest groups. Those groups with the most money to hire the best lobbyists seem to fare the best, regardless if it in the best interest of the community.

Campaign reform is indeed needed, unfortunately the people that are most affected by that are the people who have a vote to change it. They also get to vote themselves raises, and have cleverly crafted the law so that the raises can be affected without a vote. In other words they have to vote to reject the raise. Have we seen that happen? Since we are their employers, shouldn’t we have some say so as to whether they should receive the raise?

And speaking of fiscal responsibility, of course it is our money though they prefer to act as it is theirs, unfortunately again we cannot vote on each expenditure, but we sure as heck should hold our representatives accountable when they do not toe the line on frivolous spending. Of course it is difficult and time consuming to keep up with the spending bills that get passed. It would be much easier if the legislature would commit to a reasonable budget and commit to meet the budgetary guidelines.

Boy, you hit a hot spot of mine on the judicial branch of our government. You and I are in total accord. As construed and constructed by our founding fathers, the Legislative Branch enacts laws. The Judicial Branch applies those laws and ensures no laws violate the Constitution. I’ve already stated my opinion on term limits for the federal and Supreme Court justices.

I thought that line item veto has been available since the first Bush term?

Foreign aid I think is or at least can be a good thing. It should be spent wisely of course.

The no child left behind program is still around (I think) but I don’t know how effectively the program is being implemented, or even how well thought out it was at conception. Yes, we need Americans working. This was a sticking point for me with the second Bush campaign, I could not believe that only the second president in history (anyone can correct me if they have different data) who lost jobs during his presidency. The other being Hoover, and we know how his bid for re-election went.

As far as free trade, we need that. It is a good thing. The problem is, trade imbalance. A large part of the blame for business, particularly manufacturing business, going overseas should be put right at the feet of corporate greed. That is companies taking money from the business and paying off corporate officers and stockholders rather than reinvesting in their infrastructure to allow them to compete. Look at the steel industry decades ago. Entire towns were devastated when the mills closed because we could import a superior product for less money. A good example right now is the BP’s Prudhoe Bay field that is shut down because of 16 miles of bad pipe. Does the term preventative maintenance come to mind?

I have lots of thoughts on Iraq, but specifically why things seem to have fallen into disarray IMO, Bush has valued the counsel of the likes of Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, and Cheney over the military leaders whose job it is to implement the plans of those civilians. This is another weakness of Bush in general. It appears that it doesn’t really matter to him that you know what you are doing, as long as you are blindly loyal to him and his core advisors and do not go against the grain. Just ask Powell.

Guaranteed health care is another subject that I don’t have an answer for, but I do know that it is far cheaper to apply preventative medicine than it is to have to try to cure after the fact. That goes for the very young, the very old and all persons in between. How to fund it and administer a program for those that can’t afford it (ie. the working poor, those that can’t work) I don’t know. Avoiding the staggering costs that unnecessary bureaucracy can add to such a program is another significant dilemma.

Americans need to be able to earn a living wage, but at the same time I understand that jobs have a certain value to them and you can’t expect to earn more than a job is worth. Affixing a true market dollar value can only be achieved when all workers are working on a level field. Allowing illegal workers into the market place does not allow that to take place.

True we are a country is founded on immigration, but it was legal immigration. And those immigrants were proud to be Americans and anxious to learn the American ways including speaking the language of the country which is English. Today we are a country of hyphenated people it is not merely enough to be an American you must be a (insert the nationality of choice)-American. I guess I’m just a Texican :)
 
Great post. I took the time to breakout each topic and kind of give you my thoughts. Again thanks for the thoughtful reply. Some very good stuff.


Mr. Clean said:
Scrub, good talking points.

I struggle with the idea of term limits for senators and congressional reps. Of course they do have term limits, and in theory if they are not meeting the people’s expectations their term limits are set when they are not re-elected. On the other hand we have often seen the power of being the incumbent. I just can’t come to a right answer for that situation. One are where term limits are definitely needed are in the judiciary, there is no way that any judge federal or supreme court that merits a lifetime position. Term limits and mandatory retirement ages should be enacted.

I agree with the judicial side, but for the congress why not. Early on in American history information flow was poor. Travel was also poor. A central location for government ensured each state had a voice there. It would be easier to send a few as the voice of many. With the advent of cable news, the internet, and even Cspan voters have more information available to them. Having an influx of freshman reps and senators would hurt legislation flow back then. Today the time to get up to speed should be reduced.

For example, the first computers seemed pretty complicated. I wouldn’t have believed 10-15 years later I could run to Best Buy and pick up some parts to build my own computer. The point is with more info and resources available we gained more experience and knowledge.

How does this apply to Washington? I don’t think we need 25-30 year senators or reps in office, simply because they know how Washington politics works. That's selling ourselves short.

Mr. Clean said:
We have turned into a nation of special interest groups. Those groups with the most money to hire the best lobbyists seem to fare the best, regardless if it in the best interest of the community.

Campaign reform is indeed needed, unfortunately the people that are most affected by that are the people who have a vote to change it. They also get to vote themselves raises, and have cleverly crafted the law so that the raises can be affected without a vote. In other words they have to vote to reject the raise. Have we seen that happen? Since we are their employers, shouldn’t we have some say so as to whether they should receive the raise?

This goes hand in hand. The big donors to campaigns are the special interests. Get rid of this soft money. This is buying people and votes. As I stated before it shouldn’t cost as much money to buy a seat in the House or Senate. Even local elections, in some cities and states, winning comes down to who has the most money rather than the best candidate. Why did Howard Dean become the DNC chair. Because he can raise tons of money. It sure wasn’t for his great debating and interviewing skills.


Mr. Clean said:
And speaking of fiscal responsibility, of course it is our money though they prefer to act as it is theirs, unfortunately again we cannot vote on each expenditure, but we sure as heck should hold our representatives accountable when they do not toe the line on frivolous spending. Of course it is difficult and time consuming to keep up with the spending bills that get passed. It would be much easier if the legislature would commit to a reasonable budget and commit to meet the budgetary guidelines.

True. If we only influence a few in the legislature we still lose because of the minority of that opinion.

Mr. Clean said:
Boy, you hit a hot spot of mine on the judicial branch of our government. You and I are in total accord. As construed and constructed by our founding fathers, the Legislative Branch enacts laws. The Judicial Branch applies those laws and ensures no laws violate the Constitution. I’ve already stated my opinion on term limits for the federal and Supreme Court justices.

Agree

Mr. Clean said:
I thought that line item veto has been available since the first Bush term?

I’m not sure. I thought congress didn’t want the president to have that kind of power. I recall a bill that the president said he would veto due to some rider on the bill. He didn't say anything about vetoing the rider.


Mr. Clean said:
Foreign aid I think is or at least can be a good thing. It should be spent wisely of course.

My point there was we give our money away to countries that don’t like us. We could use that money here at home in more programs or tax cuts.

Mr. Clean said:
The no child left behind program is still around (I think) but I don’t know how effectively the program is being implemented, or even how well thought out it was at conception. Yes, we need Americans working. This was a sticking point for me with the second Bush campaign, I could not believe that only the second president in history (anyone can correct me if they have different data) who lost jobs during his presidency. The other being Hoover, and we know how his bid for re-election went.

I’m not very fluent on this particular program. I was just trying to remember some domestic programs that Bush has talked about and ask where are more programs for Americans. That’s my point there really aren’t to many domestic programs for Americans from this president. It’s all about war. He hardly acknowledged the gas price problems. He's a bury his head in the sand president when it comes to the care and feeding of the citizens. He'll put the "well I took us to war" spin on it.

I'm really uncomfortable with America's position in the world today. We've alienated many countries. One thing I agree with Mr Bush is not needing UN approval to defend our borders. We don't!

Mr. Clean said:
As far as free trade, we need that. It is a good thing. The problem is, trade imbalance. A large part of the blame for business, particularly manufacturing business, going overseas should be put right at the feet of corporate greed. That is companies taking money from the business and paying off corporate officers and stockholders rather than reinvesting in their infrastructure to allow them to compete. Look at the steel industry decades ago. Entire towns were devastated when the mills closed because we could import a superior product for less money. A good example right now is the BP’s Prudhoe Bay field that is shut down because of 16 miles of bad pipe. Does the term preventative maintenance come to mind?

You are correct a trade balance needs to be in effect. Free enterprise prohibits the forceful use of government to limit profits or keep business in America. But boycotts by consumers can really send a message. Another thing is businesses should have more loyalty to this country than to profits.

Let’s talk about gas prices. That’s the biggest sham going. During a national crisis, rather than reduce profits and cut prices the oil companies raised their prices. Now I understand if the supply price went up to raise their price to maintain profitability. The problem was the oil companies profits continued to rise meaning the supply side price was stagnant and the demand side sales increased which lead to increased profits.

No big deal right. This is the business world right. It’s the law of supply and demand right. WRONG! Gas is a commodity that can cripple this country. And its not a matter of supply and demand.

Let’s look at hamburgers for the example. If McDonalds drastically raised their prices we the consumer have choices of other places we could go. In addition let’s say all the burger joints conspire together and raise their prices at the same time to the same price. No big deal I just go get a pizza or some fried chicken. Consumers have other choices due to competition. Herein lies the problem when gas prices go over $4.00 a gallon where else can we go to buy gas or another source of fuel. We can’t. Our hands are tied. That’s why I feel the oil companies shouldn’t be allowed to drastically raise prices. We have to have gas and can’t go without it. We have no other choices.

Go ahead and throw out the hybrid cars. Do a cost analysis. When we were looking at a new Accord we priced the hybrid Accord. It was $10,000 dollars more than the fully loaded Accord we purchased. I’m not sure of the fuel savings by driving the hybrid. But how long would it take to break even with the fuel savings cost compared to the extra $10,000 spent on the vehicle. Probably longer than I would own the car. E-85 isn’t any better. The car manufactures won’t tell you fuel economy goes down with E-85 because it’s less efficient.





Mr. Clean said:
I have lots of thoughts on Iraq, but specifically why things seem to have fallen into disarray IMO, Bush has valued the counsel of the likes of Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, and Cheney over the military leaders whose job it is to implement the plans of those civilians. This is another weakness of Bush in general. It appears that it doesn’t really matter to him that you know what you are doing, as long as you are blindly loyal to him and his core advisers and do not go against the grain. Just ask Powell.

Bush is a chuckle head. He got tons of credit for having some of the best advisers. If you ask me the advisers are just party leftovers from the Regan administration. The good ole boy system at work.

Mr. Clean said:
Guaranteed health care is another subject that I don’t have an answer for, but I do know that it is far cheaper to apply preventative medicine than it is to have to try to cure after the fact. That goes for the very young, the very old and all persons in between. How to fund it and administer a program for those that can’t afford it (ie. the working poor, those that can’t work) I don’t know. Avoiding the staggering costs that unnecessary bureaucracy can add to such a program is another significant dilemma.

No help here. Managing costs seems to be a good thing. Its trickle down from the Docs to the patients because we have to pay the doctors for their expensive malpractice insurance.

Mr. Clean said:
Americans need to be able to earn a living wage, but at the same time I understand that jobs have a certain value to them and you can’t expect to earn more than a job is worth. Affixing a true market dollar value can only be achieved when all workers are working on a level field. Allowing illegal workers into the market place does not allow that to take place.

I was thinking about this at work yesterday. Look at it like this and tell me what you think.

If I make minimum wage ($5.75 I think) and gas cost $3.00 a gallon and I use 10-15 gallons a week how much is left for rent and food. Not much. Not mentioning the food prices are outrageous too.

We are killing the lower income workers. These people do important work too. In a society we need all types of skilled workers and incomes. These folks should be compensated for it. We all can’t be Donald Trump. We need the fast food employees, supermarket employees, sanitation workers, stock brokers, doctors…for our society to function. We all should not make the same money but we all should be fairly compensated to earn a decent living.


This country is the land of opportunity, not the land of guarantee. For some folks though they never seem to get ahead. That’s who we should help out, those that are trying but can’t keep up, not those that expect a free ride.


Mr. Clean said:
True we are a country is founded on immigration, but it was legal immigration. And those immigrants were proud to be Americans and anxious to learn the American ways including speaking the language of the country which is English. Today we are a country of hyphenated people it is not merely enough to be an American you must be a (insert the nationality of choice)-American. I guess I’m just a Texican :)

So what are some ideas on how to make changes to our government? If we could come together as a group and influence some change maybe that might get the ball rolling. I feel we can all agree some change is needed.
 
scrub said:
My point there was we give our money away to countries that don’t like us. We could use that money here at home in more programs or tax cuts.


One thing I agree with Mr Bush is not needing UN approval to defend our borders. We don't!


Go ahead and throw out the hybrid cars. Do a cost analysis. When we were looking at a new Accord we priced the hybrid Accord. It was $10,000 dollars more than the fully loaded Accord we purchased. I’m not sure of the fuel savings by driving the hybrid. But how long would it take to break even with the fuel savings cost compared to the extra $10,000 spent on the vehicle. Probably longer than I would own the car. E-85 isn’t any better. The car manufactures won’t tell you fuel economy goes down with E-85 because it’s less efficient.


This country is the land of opportunity, not the land of guarantee. For some folks though they never seem to get ahead. That’s who we should help out, those that are trying but can’t keep up, not those that expect a free ride.


I say same or less programs but just make them work better, the ones we have now don't work and they will never work untill someone just comes in and regroup everything. Of course more tax breaks, thats always good.


UN Sucks, look what they are doing now with that peacekeeping force. Its taking them forever, because everyone has to agree on everything. Its taking 100 times longer then if the 2 countries actually doing the peacekeeping (france and ---) just got on the phone and talked for 20 min, it would be done and they would be in there by now.

Hybrid thing, absolutly true. Around here its only like 20 cents cheaper, and you have to fill up almost twice as much, its costing you more for the car and the gas. It would be nice to get somthing other then gas to run on, that water powered car would be cool. Turns water into hydrogen and that burns.

Absolutly no free riders, thats whats causing the downfall of most of our systems in the country.
 
Hybrids are fashionable, just 2 years ago they sold for below their costs. Now people are paying for the privilege and status to own one. Marketing at its best.
 
scrub, I too appreciate the exchange of thoughts.
scrub said:
I agree with the judicial side, but for the congress why not. .
I certainly understand your pov and it isn't without merit, and I won't even offer you a "strong" opposition platform other than to refer back to my statement that the voter's booth should be an effective term limits tool.
scrub said:
I don’t think we need 25-30 year senators or reps in office, simply because they know how Washington politics works.
I generally agree, and specifically agree that 25-30 years of work experience doesn't guarantee that you are compentent. We do need people who are willing to work (and I suspect it is hard work) to grasp the task at hand, commit to work for the common good of all of the people, be honest with the people even when the news isn't what the people want to hear.

scrub said:
I thought congress didn’t want the president to have that kind of power. I recall a bill that the president said he would veto due to some rider on the bill. He didn't say anything about vetoing the rider..
I checked, he does not have line item veto, Clinton had it in '96 in which he used it 11 times for 82 line items. The problem is, Bush still has the power of veto, which he has not used on even a single spending bill. The reluctance on his and Congress' part to hold the line on costs continues to add to our burgeoning deficit.

scrub said:
I'm really uncomfortable with America's position in the world today. We've alienated many countries. One thing I agree with Mr Bush is not needing UN approval to defend our borders. We don't!
We need to work cooperatively within the global community, if we wan't to be a part of it. Every society has rules. I have a hard time believing that if threatened, anyone (including the U.N.) is going to tell us not to act. Protecting us (the people) from foreign threats is one of the few responsibilities of our government.

scrub said:
Free enterprise prohibits the forceful use of government to limit profits or keep business in America. But boycotts by consumers can really send a message. Another thing is businesses should have more loyalty to this country than to profits.
I'm not sure of your meaning. But free enterprise is a good thing. The government doesn't have a right to limit profits of business unless they are acting improperly ie. illegally.

scrub said:
Let’s talk about gas prices.
Unless the government can prove wrong doing by the oil companies, then there should be no action taken. Granted gas prices also drive other prices due to transportation. A major problem is that I doubt the diligence of this administration to seek out any problems within the industry for obvious reasons. Another thing, I can't help but believe that the turmoil we have generated in the Middle East has had a definite impact on the prices of crude oil.

scrub said:
He got tons of credit for having some of the best advisers. If you ask me the advisers are just party leftovers from the Regan administration. The good ole boy system at work.
I don't know about credit, but you are absolutely correct that three of the central figures of this administration, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Rice all come from the Reagan and elder Bush administration. I can't remember if Rove had ties to the senior Bush or not.

scrub said:
I was thinking about this at work yesterday. Look at it like this and tell me what you think.

If I make minimum wage ($5.75 I think) and gas cost $3.00 a gallon and I use 10-15 gallons a week how much is left for rent and food. Not much. Not mentioning the food prices are outrageous too.

We are killing the lower income workers. These people do important work too. In a society we need all types of skilled workers and incomes. These folks should be compensated for it. We all can’t be Donald Trump. We need the fast food employees, supermarket employees, sanitation workers, stock brokers, doctors…for our society to function. We all should not make the same money but we all should be fairly compensated to earn a decent living.
Believe me, I understand. I have two "children" trying to make their way in the world. No, they are not earning minimum wage, but they do struggle to make ends meet. I'm not arguing the "to raise or not to raise" the minimum wage limits, but rather that jobs have a certain value and when businesses, particularly small businesses are forced to pay wages which exceed a job's value then they are in danger of failing. This is especially bad since small business is currently the largest source of new jobs. For larger businesses, they will pass the increased personnel costs along in the form of higher prices for their products and/or services. That creates a double edged sword for the lower income workers, they are making more money, but costs of goods and services have risen also.

scrub said:
This country is the land of opportunity, not the land of guarantee.
Absolutely

scrub said:
So what are some ideas on how to make changes to our government? If we could come together as a group and influence some change maybe that might get the ball rolling. I feel we can all agree some change is needed.
Pay attention! Get involved! Vote, and know what your are voting for and why! Don't rely on someone else to choose your representative(s)! Question everything and everyone! That would be a start :)
 
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