2005 Passat: MF D300 Paint correction and interior detail

Dave N

Dave N

My PC goes to 7...
A few weeks ago, there was a post about the pH of Blackfire Wash. That got me to wondering about the pH of detailing products in general, so today I brought several samples into the lab and took some readings. I mixed 1 ml of each product with 25 ml of distilled water, and took readings on a “Beckman Phi 40� pH meter. My background is not in chemistry, so I hope my method accurately represents the pH of the products. I needed to dilute the samples in order to take the readings. Distilled water should have no buffering capability, and thus should not influence the pH of each product (not much, anyway), giving an accurate reading. Neutral pH is 7.0; anything below that is “acidic� (like acid), and anything higher than 7.0 is “basic� (like bleach). The lower the number, the stronger the acid, and the higher the number, the stronger the base. The numbers below are for “entertainment purposes only�, and should not be used to make a value judgment about any product. I don’t know what the “optimal� pH of automotive paint is, so maybe someone else can comment. If anyone else out there has a background in chemistry, please comment about my method or the results.

I couldn't get this data to look good in this forum, so here's a link to an html doc:
http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~dneece/ph.htm
 
Cool test, thanks for sharing your results. What amazes me is that the BF Polish and Paint Protection are nearly equal to Simple Green and stronger than DAWN. I'm no chemist, but wow! :eek: :scared



FWIW, I'm NOT surprised that the BF Polish and Protection were exactly EQUAL.



Good work!







:xyxthumbs
 
I fail to see how those numbers relate to acrylic enamel paint finishes or clear coats.



Intermezzo seems to think an alkaline solution is bad.





This sounds like a Ron K. question.
 
Euro, yes I do think applying a caustic solution to your clear-coat is bad. Who knows, maybe I'm wrong, but I sure as hell wouldn't feel comfortable applying something with a PH approaching 10 to my car.



According to Ron Ketcham, washing your car with something as alkaline as BF wash will hurt the pasticizers in your paint.



Quoted from a few old RK posts:



"When a clear or non-clear is washed with a alkaline solution, be it "A" , Dawn, any water based cleaner with a pH of more than 8, plastizers are removed from the paint.



This is what accounts for the loss of gloss as much as the removal of waxes/sealants."



"Plastizers are in paint, vinyl, rubber, etc and contribute to the gloss or brightness factor as well as elasticity of the substrate. These plastizers are acid based and in all automotive paint.



However, as stated in the earlier threads, the use of high caustic cleaners may and often does, remove the plastizers that are present in the paint film.



This is the reason that you and others are so correct on advising against using Dawn and other caustic cleaners on a regular basis."



Well, the BF wash, polish and protectant are all extremely alkaline. Thanks, but no thanks. This would definitely explain why slickness and gloss were diminished after just one wash on my friend's new Lexus, to say nothing of the gradual decline in plasticizers I would have caused had I continued to wash his car with BF.
 
I'm hoping that one of the people here who are knowledgable in paint chemistry can comment on this data, but... Doesn't the relative "strength" (or concentration) of a solution have just as much to do with the effect that it will have on (in this case) paint as the pH? If I took a little bleach and diluted it with a lot of water, it would still have the same pH (more or less) as concentrated bleach. But I would much rather have the diluted bleach get into my eye than concentrated! That's why I warned against making a definite value judgement on any product, at least until some of the experts have given their 2c. The pH of the OEM One-Step (an Autoint product) was also fairly alkaline, but I doubt that Autoint would put out a product that would be bad for paint.



It's interesting that the Klasse had a lower pH. I wish I had some more sealants to test. I was going to test Nu Finish, but it wouldn't mix with water. This brings up another point -- the pH of some of these products may not be accurate depending on how soluble they are in water (i.e. some products did not give a stable reading). All of the products appeared to dissolve, but you never know. Testing the product directly with pH tape would probably give a more definite answer, but I didn't have any.
 
The ph of water is around 7.0 so the more water you add to an acid or alkine product the nearer to 7.0 it will be. 1 part bleach and 1000 parts water will have a ph near 7.0 not near the ph of concentrated bleach.
 
Dilution and molarity.......2 important terms in chemistry........



Anyhow, the car wash should of been diluted like it is in your wash bucket. About 1 ounce of wash per 2-3 gallons of water or so.



For the other products, consider the hydrocarbon solvents in the mixtures. These might or might not be totally or partially soluble in water, or form two immiscible phases. Tough to perform an accurate test mixing with water............
 
Screw the plasticizers, I just don't like washing my wax off when washing my car!!! :D And for the record, 'twas I who posted the info about the car wash pH's...still looking for the best car wash solution for thewaxtest.org's needs.



Dave - the lower pH (acidity) in a product helps remove stains/etching. Since the AIO is a cleaner product, I'm assuming that they have a slightly lower pH to help clean the surface. A pH of 6.0 isn't anything to worry about, from what my chemist pals tell me.



And, (drumroll) the pH of NuFinish (direct measurement) appears to be over 8.8, nearly a 9.0. (measured with 3 devices and averaged)



Please don't ask me to test all of the products - I'm swamped "as is".
 
Hey geek please test all the products for PH. Thanks.



LOL:D





Again you will not have the last word er post in a thread.
 
Hey Steve, Don't forget to list each item's molecular formula too.



We don't want to miss any molecules.



The so called chemists here in autopia will never forgive you.
 
who ever said it above (I'm lazy :D) yes you should test the chemicals in the concentration you use them in. Testing the pH of pure Dawn wouldn't be correct for example. But testing the bucket water would be more fair.



As for BF polish, it is applied full strength so the testing is valid at full strength.



One thing, you did calibrate your pH meter didn't you? They can be extremely finiky.



More thoughts to add to the pot, cola has a pH of like 2.5 and hydrogen peroxide (OTC) has a pH of like 3.5. Cola in your eye won't harm it much but hydrogen peroxide will. So determining harshness is substrate specific rather than black and white pH reading.



I also looked up some others, milk was 6.5 and eggs were 8.



Good luck in your testing :)
 
Substrate specific? I thought we were talking about only one substrate here...that being the surface of your car? :)



Steve, I agree with most of what you say. It's not all about B&W Ph readings. Hydrogen peroxide burns your eyes b/c it is potentially an extremely combustible fluid. Even though the stuff sold OTC is only 97% water, the stuff is very strong. So it's not the concentration of H ions that causes the damage. We're talking about stuff that's used sometimes as an additive for rocket fuel. Cola however, is just sweetened, flavored water that happens to be pretty acidic from carbonation, sodium citrate, etc. Harmless stuff. :)
 
<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' >

<em class='bbc'>Originally posted by Intermezzo [/i]
<strong class='bbc'>Cola however, is just sweetened, flavored water that happens to be pretty acidic from carbonation, sodium citrate, etc. Harmless stuff. :) [/b]</blockquote>
Does this mean I can use Coke to clean my wheels! :)
 
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