106ff/blackfire hiding abilities...

[Al Buff]

Depending on type of paint and if rotary or PC. Pads should be a firm polishing pad for 106FF and a softer, but not too soft for 85RD. 2x2 on average paint with a good pad that has already been loaded with polish at 1500RPM takes about 2 to 3 minutes, sometimes a bit longer. Also depends how much polish is on the finish. but normally 2 to 3 is about correct.



Softer paints polishing times are shorter and polish amounts have to be limited so the polish breaks down, otherwise you start to mark up the finish with the loaded up pad as you try to break it down. You can go with softer pads and get away with too much polish at times.



Once you find the correct amount of polish to pad, then times can start to be reduced as you get more familure with the polishes. I doesn't matter which polish you use, it's how you work it and with what tools on what type of surface and it's condition.



Light swirls or marring, you can go straight to 85RD and a polish pad. Softer paints once the defects are removed, I found that a finish pad and slower speeds burnish the finish well with 85RD. More oils let it work longer than other finishing polishes.



3M Ultrafina works by ending the polishing wet, not dry. You work it to a specific degree and that's it, no working it till dust as that would be very bad with 3M Ultrafina. That polish is married to their pads and I suggest you follow what 3M tells you. They put out a few webinars on the new polish as well.:2thumbs: Great learning tool for those wanting to see what 3M has to offer.



Blackfire is unknown to me as I only use professional/large quantity product lines. It may very well be just 106FF in smaller containers, but I doubt it. I'm sure they added some extra oils for longer time. Or they could have even lessen the oil content for PC use and quicker break down. I'm leaning on the less oil/quicker break down for PC users as this seems to be marketed in that fashion. Besides, most heavy rotary users do not use small product lines, but quart bottles along with polishes mostly geared for rotary use.



BTW, 106FF also works really well with some wool pads which I use often in place of foam cutting pads as they are more forgiving and I was trained with wool anyway and feel better using them when removing deep or lots of swirls quckly. Foam cutting pads can have a nasty habbit of burning a fender area since they do not give as much as a wool pad will. YOu have more control with wool than foam. Foam cutting works best on flat surfaces, then I can switch to my SF Arnold wools. Then, foam polish pads and finish pads.



As I tell everyone, get yourself a fender and hood from a bone yard and try to learn your polishing technique on that with specific polishes and pads BEFORE you use it on your vehicle or a customers. I'd rather have someone learn it on the junk parts and burn those before someone touches their own finish. It's a whole lot cheaper to burn up pads and polish on the junk.



I hope I answered your question and added some more wisdom when it comes to Menzerna, 3M and others as it relates to polishing correctly.



Regards,

Deanski

I never tried the 106ff as the BlackFire is a few bucks cheaper ($22 for 16oz than $49 for 32oz of 106ff). So far, im in love! I do the IPA wipedown with grease/wax remover (body shop grade) to get a feel for it.. so far, so good. there was only a few incidents where holograms/swirls came back and thats probably because i didnt work it long enough.



So, you should work the area for 2-3 minutes total right? Or do you mean it takes 2-3 minutes for the polish to break down THEN you have to work it some more. It seems to me that i can get away with about 1 to 1 1/2 minutes but im using the constant pressure technology ccs pads and i use quite a bit of pressure on it.. i spread it at the lowest rpm; then make a very slow pass at 1500rpms to built some heat, then i slow it down the 1200 for the rest. and i dont think im hitting a 2x2 area, probably less of an area. I usually work it till i dont see the oil streaking anymore, and then maybe a few seconds later.



I spritz my pad with water after each area too, and when it seems like i got a good load on the pad, i only add a very small amount, like the size of a peanut, maybe less at times depending on how the pad looks.

 

[Deanski]

I have....I don't think it is that great. It REMOVES the swirls pretty well, but then you get this clear sligy liquid everywhere. It sucks to have to go and wipe down the whole car all over again after polishing. If you get any of this stuff in the cal area it seems to stain the trim. I wasn't impressed, but I have only tried it twice. On the plus side it has a huge working time and it holds up to window cleaner wipe downs.

One of my guys loves the Ultrafina, but as with me, he's been weened on 3M from the start, but does not have an open mind as to polishes and technique.



I have yet to fully use it as I think finising wet can be an issue if this wet finishing is a PITA to remove. It could induce more marring as you wipe off if the MF towel is not fully clean or too stiff. But, then again, it may be OK to wipe off wet. One day I'll play with tjhe system and let you all know.



Deanski

 

[imported_rydawg1]

I am a big Menzerna user, but lately I have been using the 3m 3000 series Extra cut compound which removes scratches great and restores the gloss excellent.



Ultrafina in my opinion is one of the best finishing polishes I have tried. It will remove a good amount of holograms and leave the surface absolutly perfect. I have reffered this to other top detailers here and they now swear by it.



It however does sling a bit and that is it's nature for proper working, but I wash all my cars after the prep anyway. I wish it was easier to clean up like Menzerna, but the finish it leaves is just purely amazing. I have tested with a bunch of solvents to just to make sure there is no filling and it passed with flying colors, even on the softest of the blacks.



Now if 3M could just do something to make cleanup easier then it would be absolutly perfect, but I will sacrifice more cleanup for a flawless finish. You just have to make sure you wipe up the excess spatter fast or it will be a pain to remove.



I use to hate 3M products years ago, but they definately stepped it up with these two products for sure. The 3M Swirl Remover polish does suck and is useless so I substitute it with SIP.



I do have the 3M SRC polish which works great, but the chemical smell is awfull and does make you dizzy and sick for real.



When it comes to the final residue clean up, Menzerna wins hands down and is the easiest residue I have ever cleaned up ever. I just wish 3M could do something better with there polishes in the clean up dept..

 

[Deanski]

That's what my guys tell me about the Ultrafina. Messy, but nice.



I assume 3M made this for areas masked off after repaint and cure, but doubt it as you have to remove the masked areas before you put it in the "oven" booth.



I've viewed the Ultrafina finish and yes, it looks very nice. I'm still on the fence on using it. I've been taught on 3M mostly, but also Menzerna when it was avalible in the country by distributors. Before, it had to be imported by one firm for dealerships and you think it's costly now?



3M also provides training to detailers and dealerships on their products, you just have to inquire on when the next training session is. For dealerships, they come to the shop. Same for some bodyshops. Now, to try to keep costs down, they use locations for shops to come to so they can train numerous shops all at the same time.



I still like Menzerna's way of breaking down the polish with the proper friction of the rotary. I can deal with dusting when done. Finishing with P085RD looks superb.



It's always crucial to match pads to product. You'd be surprised how one pad has a different effect even though they are both polishing or finishing pads. Same goes for cutting pads. All depends on the types of foam, it's cell count and it's surface.



Again, this is why I stress highly to play with different pads with a test panel first. Pads are cheap, a paint finish is not. I always test pads and products on a test hood and fender even though I have years and years of experience. Nothing touches my finish or a customers finish without full evaluation of a product or pad first! So what if I trash a few pads, at least I'll know how they react with specific polishes that I use all the time.



I say, try different polishes with an open mind, but try them on your test subject first!



Deanski