105/205 Problems

[sclinton]

I thought i had all the information needed to complete a simple correction on my2008 RR EVO but the results are still leaving me confused. Friday i completed all the prep (wash, clay, etc). The car has your typical (dealer induced) swirls, nothing major but spread across the entire car.



I am using a Griots DA (older version) and the Griots orange pads. My issue is 105 didn't seen to remove anything? I tried several methods on the hood, even the KB method and the correction was minimal if anything. I've seen the correction that others have been able to accomplish on this forum and thought my work would be simple, not the case.



Is this DA not powerful enough, are the pads crap? The odd thing is 105 didn't do anything more than the 205? I did several side by side comparisons and couldn't tell the difference in correction or finished look.



Any assistance would be appreciated, Thanks!

 

[Accumulator]

I am using a Griots DA (older version) and the Griots orange pads. My issue is 105 didn't seen to remove anything? I tried several methods on the hood, even the KB method and the correction was minimal if anything. I've seen the correction that others have been able to accomplish on this forum and thought my work would be simple, not the case...

Sounds like the same thing that happends when I try to do that with my PCs. I wouldn't assume that it's you. Unfortunately, your experience isn't at all uncommon.

Is this DA not powerful enough..

Yeah, that's the problem IMO. ON a machine like that, you need to use 4" pads for serious correction.

are the pads crap?

Actually, I *really* like the Griot's orange pads, BUT..only with a sufficiently powerful machine, which yours isn't.



Also, I'd use a more aggressive pad with the M105, namely a *LC* brand orange pad, which is a whole lot more aggressive than the Griot's. OR maybe the new LC cyan pad.



But the big thing here is to use a smaller pad.

The odd thing is 105 didn't do anything more than the 205? I did several side by side comparisons and couldn't tell the difference in correction or finished look.

I bet that's just because the large pad is overloading the machine to the point that not much is getting done.

 

[youngbro401]

I thought I was crazy because I used a PC7424 with the Griot's orange pad with M105 and barely saw any results also...I guess I need to get a Lake Country orange or more aggressive pad. I wasn't sure the aggressiveness of the Griot's pad when I got it but I guess it isn't like the Lake Country ones. Thanks for the help!

 

[Accumulator]

I thought I was crazy because I used a PC7424 with the Griot's orange pad with M105 and barely saw any results also...I guess I need to get a Lake Country orange or more aggressive pad. I wasn't sure the aggressiveness of the Griot's pad when I got it but I guess it isn't like the Lake Country ones. Thanks for the help!

The big thing is to use a *smaller* pad with machines like that.



Right, the Griot's orange foam is very different from other orange foams. Despite being so stiff and having what look like "cutting pad pores", it finishes out very well. Used with something like the Flex 3401 it's about the most versatile pad ever, but it needs the Flex's additional power to do serious work and it's still a bit too gentle to match up just right with M105 (just IMO).



With M105, I wouldn't recommend anything more aggressive than the 4" LC orane or 4" LC Cyan HydroTech. You could go as far as PFW, but I'd suggest waiting until you have more experience.

 

[RaskyR1]

Can we get more details as to what your method was (pad size, speed setting, amount of pressure, size of work area...)?



It usually comes down to technique as the are several users on here who get excellent correction day after day using 5.5" and even 6.5" pads on the DA's.

 

[sclinton]

The only thing about a smaller pad is this is the older Griots DA that as far as i can tell doesn't have a replaceable back plate, connects to drive with four screws in the face of the plate not one nut below. I do have the newer three inch DA from Griots with the changeable plate maybe i should use that with a 4 inch plate and a 4.5 inch pad?



In regards to my technical i tried everything i have learned from you guys. Primed pad unprimed pad, heavy pressure (which brings this DA to a stop) to lite pressure. Even worked some areas for three to four minutes. I varied the speed using three to spread the polish and then five or six to work, all pads were Griots six inch orange pads, changed and cleaned regularly. Nothing seemed to make a real difference.



I'm thinking it's the machine but I'd hate to go buy another one and determine it's me. I'd actually much rather someone tell me it's just me (with some suggestions for resolution of course). Thanks.

 

[tkblazer]

would you guys use a uber yellow 4" pad with a pcxp and UC or m105

 

[RaskyR1]

The only thing about a smaller pad is this is the older Griots DA that as far as i can tell doesn't have a replaceable back plate, connects to drive with four screws in the face of the plate not one nut below. I do have the newer three inch DA from Griots with the changeable plate maybe i should use that with a 4 inch plate and a 4.5 inch pad?



In regards to my technical i tried everything i have learned from you guys. Primed pad unprimed pad, heavy pressure (which brings this DA to a stop) to lite pressure. Even worked some areas for three to four minutes. I varied the speed using three to spread the polish and then five or six to work, all pads were Griots six inch orange pads, changed and cleaned regularly. Nothing seemed to make a real difference.



I'm thinking it's the machine but I'd hate to go buy another one and determine it's me. I'd actually much rather someone tell me it's just me (with some suggestions for resolution of course). Thanks.

I've not used the Griots polisher before but have no trouble getting good correction with my old PC using orange LC pads both 5.5" and 6.5". I suggest getting some cutting pads like the orange LC first. Prime the pad with M105, use a speed of 6, keep your work area small, heavy pressure but make sure the pad is still rotating, slow arm speed (1-2 inch per second), and over lapping checker board passes. Do 4-6 and inspect the area.



I know on my PC it takes a decent amount of pressure to stop the pad spinning on a speed of 6....more than I've ever needed to use.





Hopefully Bryan will see this thread and give his $.02 as he uses the PCXP 24/7 and gets amazing results. :2thumbs:





Also, the PC/G110 uses a tool like this to remove the backing plate. Not sure if the old Griots is the same or not but the new one is.

 

[jimshadow]

Greetings! I'm new to the site, but have followed the forum for quite a while. Finally got around to registering tonight.



I'm currently working on a yellow 2007 Aston Martin DB9 for a friend and have run into a similiar situation... I also have an older Griots DA. How old is your product? I finally switched products (both have 'similiar' cut strength) and got different results. Might be worth a try in your case.....worked in mine.



JIM

 

[sclinton]

It's about three years old. When you say "switched products" what are you referring to? I've tried both the 105 and 205, from what i understand the 105 should have a much higher "cut rate" than the 205.



What pads are you using with the machine? In regards to the post above the older Griots DAs didn't have that type of backing plate design. It's connected via four screws straight through the plate. Unfortunately i don't think i can use anything smaller that 6 inch with this DA..

 

[jimshadow]

It's about three years old. When you say "switched products" what are you referring to? I've tried both the 105 and 205, from what i understand the 105 should have a much higher "cut rate" than the 205.



What pads are you using with the machine? In regards to the post above the older Griots DAs didn't have that type of backing plate design. It's connected via four screws straight through the plate. Unfortunately i don't think i can use anything smaller that 6 inch with this DA..

I have that same DA. I can't fit anything smaller than 6" pad on it.

I'm not sure the issue is age related as they say there is really no 'expriation date' on the product. I used Griots #1 (most aggressive they have) and it only took the scraches down a little w/a new orange pad I hit it again with #1 and same thing. Switched to Meguiars Mirror Glaze #2, (the only thing I could find on a Sat afternoon) which I believe is in the same ballpark as far as cut and it worked nicely. (This job is not to bring about 100% correction, rather take out the major scuffs/scratches and protect it for winter storage.) Unfortunately, the first polish revealed some ugly stuff underneath!

I wonder (pro's chime in) if it has something to do with the finish on the Aston? I've used Griots #1 (followed by #2&3) on a black Boxster, black BMW wagon and a white Mercedes SUV with excellent results.



FWIW, YMMV



JIM

 

[David Fermani]

It usually comes down to technique as the are several users on here who get excellent correction day after day using 5.5" and even 6.5" pads on the DA's.

I think you're right Rasky. Correction via DA is very technique dependent. It probably takes a minimum of 2-3 cars to really get the uderstanding of the machine/product/workflow. I see many people give up if they don't see any immediate improvement. I prefer the 5.5 inch pads myself.

I wonder (pro's chime in) if it has something to do with the finish on the Aston? I've used Griots #1 (followed by #2&3) on a black Boxster, black BMW wagon and a white Mercedes SUV with excellent results.

Actually, Aston paint should respond really well to a DA if you use Meg's M105 with a Lake Country Orange Pad. Looks for threads by Kevin Brown & gmblack3a and you'll get some very valuable info/techniques.

 

[gmblack3]

Please read my sig for some tips on using the orange pad with M105 via the KBM.

 

[Accumulator]

..It usually comes down to technique as the are several users on here who get excellent correction day after day using 5.5" and even 6.5" pads on the DA's.

-AND-

I think you're right Rasky. Correction via DA is very technique dependent. It probably takes a minimum of 2-3 cars to really get the uderstanding of the machine/product/workflow. I see many people give up if they don't see any immediate improvement. I prefer the 5.5 inch pads myself.

Eh...some people do, but some people (including yours truly) don't, at least not in a timely manner. I've been using a PC do do correction for a long, long time, and even with M105 I still need the small pads for anything but really soft clear in a reasonable (*to me*) amount of time.



Having discussed technique with everyone from Mike Phillips to Kevin Brown, and fairly recently too, I'm confident that I didn't somehow fail to develop the proper technique over the years. The M105/M205-specific tweaks to the proper PC technique aren't *really* that big a deal and as best I can tell the three of us pretty much figured out the same things as soon as we tried those polishes.



Unless both my PCs (now/used, when new, and immediately following rebuilding) are somehow malfunctioning, they just don't do the (major correction) job to my satisfaction with anything larger than the 4" pads :nixweiss



Time to mention that I've yet to try serious correction via PC/SurBuf pads. Those might work fine in large sizes since there's no need for real pressure.



Maybe I'm just impatient, but I've had it with spending ages on this stuff, I want to get it done *now*.



So when somebody says the same combos don't work for him, I'm willing to take him at his word and I think the 4" pads would be worth a try. Cheaper than "just buy a Flex"

I have that same DA. I can't fit anything smaller than 6" pad on it...

EDIT:



I thought that all the commonly referenced polishers like that take the same backing plates, Griot's, Meguiar's/PC, UDM, even the Cyclo. BUt apparently the earlier Griot's polishers take a different plate that only comes in 6".

I'm not sure the issue is age related as they say there is really no 'expriation date' on the product. I used Griots #1 (most aggressive they have) and it only took the scraches down a little w/a new orange pad I hit it again with #1 and same thing. Switched to Meguiars Mirror Glaze #2, (the only thing I could find on a Sat afternoon) which I believe is in the same ballpark as far as cut and it worked nicely.

Nah, age doesn't seem to matter with abrasive products as long as they don't dry out. I have some *really* old polishes and compounds that still work like new.



The Meg's #2 (even the newest version) is a *LOT* more aggressive than the Griot's MP#1. Though the latter feels sorta gritty, like it oughta do the job, it just *doesn't* IME, and I went through a lot of it (including the slightly different v1.0 stuff).

I wonder (pro's chime in) if it has something to do with the finish on the Aston? I've used Griots #1 (followed by #2&3) on a black Boxster, black BMW wagon and a white Mercedes SUV with excellent results.

I'm most surprised that you were happy with the results you got on those three cars! I worked with the Griot's stuff for quite a while (got it free from my late father) and other than a few cases where the MP#3 was a *very* good choice for a given job the Griot's Machine Polishes never worked well for me (at least not compared to other brands).



Since the above sounds *so* negative I do want to add that using the right 4" pads, with the right products, *WILL* allow you to do wonderful correction with machines like this. And they'll do it pretty quickly. Even with the smaller pads, nothing has ever worked as efficiently for me via PC as M105. I was simply floored by how well the PC/4" orange or 3.5" PFW/M105 worked on some *VERY* hard clear that had been giving me fits even via rotary. This is coming from a guy who reaches for his Flex 3401, or a rotary, or at least a Cyclo, for any serious correction; I'd left the PCs in their boxes for a long time before discovering how well the smaller pads work, and the right product(s) make things even better.

 

[sclinton]

This isn't true, once again the older Griots DAs don't use this type of backing plate. Your limited to six inch pads...

 

[SuperBee364]

Can we get more details as to what your method was (pad size, speed setting, amount of pressure, size of work area...)?



It usually comes down to technique as the are several users on here who get excellent correction day after day using 5.5" and even 6.5" pads on the DA's.

Yeah, which makes me think that the problem might be something other than not having an aggressive enough machine/pad combo. Actually, I think you might be *too* aggressive. There's been a few times when I used 105, looked at the paint, and thought, "huh, that didn't do a *thing* to that paint", and gone after it again, only to think the same thing afterward. Yet following up with a milder pad/polish combo left the paint perfect. The problem? On soft paint, non-diminishing abrasive polishes (like 105) can leave swirls that look pretty much identical to the swirls you were trying to get out. (Edit: to me, 105's "compounding marks" *can* look -but not always- different than what is typically left by diminishing abrasives, hence the confusion). So before you jump to something *more* aggressive when you still see swirls after 105, try something *less* aggressive first.



Even on the hardest paints, a fairly large, zero bite pad with a PC and 105 is capable of doing some pretty serious correction. Certainly enough to get out dealer prep wash marring.

 

[Accumulator]

This isn't true, once again the older Griots DAs don't use this type of backing plate. Your limited to six inch pads...

OK...I must be thinking of a newer model. Sorry to give bogus info..(off to edit). Wow, that's a pretty fatal flaw IMO.

Even on the hardest paints, a fairly large, zero bite pad with a PC and 105 is capable of doing some pretty serious correction. Certainly enough to get out dealer prep wash marring.

Eh...on the hood of the Yukon a 6.5" LC orange (and I tried a milder pad first) didn't do a thing to almost-light-as-hologram marring :nixweiss Tried the milder pad on the Flex and it came right out (along with some more serious nearby marring). That's the one I've discussed to death with various people..

 

[flaco]

M105 cuts wonderfully with a rotary. I know there are still a fair amount of folks out there that won't touch a rotary, but with today's micro-abrasive polishes, its safer than its ever been.



It seems to me that the 'safer' polishes of today work much better with rotaries and the aggressive diminishing abrasives of yesteryear worked better with PC's.



For folks who don't use a rotary, you don't know what you're missing...