What am I doing wrong?

H

hyperblu

New member
I recently painted a car and had extremely bad orange peel (did it in my garage) and started wet sanding with 1500 and 2000grit. I bought a PC 7424xp , m105, m205, meguiars yellow soft buff pad, and an 8 inch meguiars wool pad for cutting and using a pc 6" hook and loop backing plate. I didn't realize the wool pad was so big until i got it from amazon and it really bogs down my da with the slightest amount of pressure. I am getting "okay" results at best using the wool pad, but the problem is that it eats my m105 up like it's candy and it's hit or miss if it really shines up. I have come to the conclusion that the wool pad is just too large, so ordered a ccs foam wool purple pad and a 6 inch cw so I don't vibrate my hand raw. Should I be using a rotary for the wool pad? I'm really new to this so bear with me... Thanks!;)
 
I for one would recommend a rotary polisher if you're going to use wool. I've read about people being successful with wool on an orbital but my gut has always told me it just isn't sufficient when it comes to the power end of things. The truth is that I was just trained on a rotary and wool and anything else didn't feel right. I have no doubt you will spend significantly less time removing substantial defects when using a rotary.

By the way, welcome to the site. Nice to have you with us.
 
Keep in mind I do not have access to a rotary. Ive already spent well over $200 in supplies including my pc7424xp to make this paint job somewhat decent. I figured I could use my da with a much smaller pad and new counterweight in hopes to not use so much product and hopefully get better results as I can really work in the compound.
 
Hyperblu --
Welcome aboard !
Sorry you painted the vehicle too dry. Orangepeel is pretty much what happens in that condition.
If you are not going to get a Rotary, then your final result is not going to be as good.
The Lake Country Purple Foam Wool pads are great, but to use them with a compound like Meguiars 105, they need to rotate to effectively break down the compound and correct.
Perhaps you can consider going back and block wet sanding another round with say 3000 grit to further smooth out the sanding scratches and give you a better chance at getting the gloss to come out.
You probably know how much paint you have and hopefully it is a lot , so it wont hurt to use a few microns to get your desired result.
Where do you live? Perhaps someone on this Forum lives close by and can help ???
If you are in the Northwest, I am in Bellevue, WA., just out of Seattle, and would be happy to show you how to use a Rotary and even loan you one, since I have a couple.
Another option, although I dont have any experience with it is the new Microfiber pads from Meguiars that are said to be really good at cutting paint. I dont know how they act if called upon to do initial compounding of freshly applied paint, but perhaps someone here has already been down that road, if so, speak up please!

Good luck !
Dan F
 
hyperblu said:
I recently painted a car and had extremely bad orange peel (did it in my garage) and started wet sanding with 1500 and 2000grit. I bought a PC 7424xp , m105, m205, meguiars yellow soft buff pad, and an 8 inch meguiars wool pad for cutting and using a pc 6" hook and loop backing plate. I didn't realize the wool pad was so big until i got it from amazon and it really bogs down my da with the slightest amount of pressure. I am getting "okay" results at best using the wool pad, but the problem is that it eats my m105 up like it's candy and it's hit or miss if it really shines up. I have come to the conclusion that the wool pad is just too large, so ordered a ccs foam wool purple pad and a 6 inch cw so I don't vibrate my hand raw. Should I be using a rotary for the wool pad? I'm really new to this so bear with me... Thanks!;)
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With out the precisely correct products it is going to be extremely difficult to remove 2000 grit sanding marks from even fresh paint with a DA polisher. I'm going to go down the laundry list.

Sanding

Sanding, much like paint polishing, is as much an art forum as it is a process. I am not sure what brand or type of sand paper you used or how much experience you have with sanding so here are some generic tips to help you get the best result.

Sand with a high quality, equal grit sand paper such as Meguiar's Unigrit or equivalent. Traditional sandpaper is formed by gluing abrasives (that fall through traps of various grit sizes) to paper. The grit size may be similar but they way the sanding grains are dispersed across the paper is not equal. The resulting sand paper is not very even and even fine grades of regular sandpaper can cause random deeper marks. Meguiar's Unigrit, by comparison, has a uniform, impregnated grit that will leave the surface with equal depth sanding scratches.

If you are hand sanding make sure that you are using a backing pad or 'sanding block'. When you sand you are basically molding the surface to the shape of whatever is behind the sand paper. If you are using your hand (which is uneven) then you are going to create an uneven surface. Your initial grit is your cutting grit. You want to use the firmest sanding block you you can that will contour to the curves the body panel in order to create the most level surface. All subsequent sanding past that is done to refine to the scratch marks to make them easier to fully polish out.

If hand sanding you generally will see better results by sanding in a cross-hatch pattern. Start with your initial grit in one direction (lets say north and south) so that all of your sanding scratches are in one direction. For the next grit use an east and west direction. This will allow you to gauge your process. Sand the section until all north and south sanding scratches are fully removed to make sure the section is completely refined to the next grit level.

Since you are attempting to 'cut' the paint (restore the shine after sanding) with a DA random orbital polisher you are going to want to finish with a much higher (finer) grit. I would pick up Meguiar's Unigrit 2000 grade and 3000 grade papers as well as the Meguiar's Sanding Block. Go over the surface with 2000 grade until all sanding marks are in that direction, then cross hatch it with 3000 grade. This is going to give you a much higher chance of getting a show car quality finish.​

Cutting with a DA Random Orbital Polisher.

While a DA Random Orbital Polisher can be used to remove highly refined sanding marks with the exact right tools, it is really not the best tool for removing the marks from an entire car. While somebody who has a lot of experience and fully understands the complex sciences of a DA is going to have a much better chance (DA's are actually very complex machines in terms of getting the absolute potential from them), most of these guys are going to grab a rotary polisher, a wool pad (or several wool pads), and an aggressive cutting compound for the job. Keep in mind that sanding an entire car and cutting it requires a lot of experience and skill with both processes to do the job correctly.

Wool pads don't work well (in most cases) with DA Random Orbital Polishers. A DA polisher gets a lot of its cutting action from the tiny orbital motion (similar to the motion your hand makes when you are waxing on/off, tiny little circles). A wool pad's nap is very long, so the much off that orbital motion is lost and never transferred to the paint, as the fibers twist and fold over each other. While there is a type of DA polisher (not Random Orbital) called a Forced Rotation polisher that spins the pad much faster, and thus takes advantage of a wool pad, most users will still not use a wool pad with one. Those who get great results with them have typically been polishing paint for years and years and have tons of experience doing so.

Smaller pads are going to be more aggressive on a random orbital polisher. Since you are trying to get maximum cut you are going to need smaller diameter pads and a smaller diameter, appropriately sized backing plate. 6.5 inch pads or larger going to really slow, if not halt, your progress.

I would recommend using Meguiar's DA Microfiber Cutting Pads with Meguiar's M105 Ultra Cut Compound to give you the absolute best chance at removing the sanding marks (preferably the 3000 grit marks). The DA Microfiber Pads take advantage of the of the DA Random Orbital's tiny orbital circles and utilizes it. Most foam and wool pads where originally designed for a rotary polisher and adapted to DA use, the DA Microfiber Cutting Pads where designed (and only recommended) for DA use. You will need at least 4 of them.​

Should I be using a rotary and a wool pad?
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This is going to be the best tool for the job, but how much experience do you have using a rotary and a wool pad. How willing to repaint an area are you if you burn the paint or ruin an edge?

Sanding a car (properly) and cutting the paint for show car results (including the subsequent finer and finer polishing steps) is a time consuming process if you are skilled at it. If you are learning as you go it could easily take 100 hours or more.

I sanding, cut, and polished a brand new Ferrari 458 last year, and I would consider myself fairly good at it. It took me over 60 hours from start to finish. Here is a link to that write-up: 458 Italian:Full Wetsand, Orange Peel Reduction, and Detail



hyperblu said:
Keep in mind I do not have access to a rotary. Ive already spent well over $200 in supplies including my pc7424xp to make this paint job somewhat decent. I figured I could use my da with a much smaller pad and new counterweight in hopes to not use so much product and hopefully get better results as I can really work in the compound.
Click to expand...

Here is the thing, honestly. Sticking with a DA polisher you are going to need new pads, a new backing plate, (don't worry about switching the counter weight, it won't make a difference), and a lot of experience cutting with a DA to get the best results, at a minimum.

I can help you with a better product selection and this forum is a wealth of knowledge that will allow you to get learn from our cumulative experiences to hopefully get you in the direction you would like to go. Just understand that wet sanding a complete car and restoring the shine is an extremely involved and advanced job and you have really jumped right into the deep end.

I would, for now, start with the following...

At least 4 Microfiber DA Cutting Disks.
Meguiar's 2000 grit unigrit sand paper
Meguiar's 3000 grit unigrit sand paper
Meguiar's DA 5 inch backing plate
Pad conditioning brush-for cleaning the pad often.

You can purchase all of these products from Autopia-CarCare.com and use your forum discount for 15 percent off to help lessen the blow with the 200 already spent.

Best

Todd
 
Thank you all for the warm welcome and helpful information. The vehicle is actually for a family member. I actually live in middle TN a little bit south of Nashville. My old man and I are kind of doing this together and he did the paint job and really didn't listen to me when I told him he was spraying the clear too fast and far away, resulting in the orange peel. We're both kind of novices, and i'm paying for it, lol. The orange peel was aweful and I volunteered to wet sand the entire vehicle and try to bring a decent shine out of it.

The paint job was really on a budget and using the starfire line of base and clear. There was some kind of reaction to the primer on a few spots on the hood, so we ordered another gallon to repaint it. I'm hoping I can talk him into letting me spray it as I think I have better gun control. haha.

As far as the rotary goes, I am on a budget on the correction. I'm a huge honda gearhead and plan on painting my ek hatch next year *my way*, so this car is really my trial and error for next year and hopefully to learn a few techniques and really learn alot about paint correction. So when it comes to my budget, I will not have a budget on my car which means whatever rotary I wish to buy.:rockon

Keep the comments coming! Thanks guys!:redface:
 
I agree with everyone's comments. I'd like to add that the number of coats of clear you sprayed makes a huge difference in shine too. If I'm planning to buff a car I'm painting, I always spray at least 3 coats. In your case, seeing as your popps probably "dry-sprayed" the clear, I'd hope y'all laid down at least 4 or 5 that way you have something to actually buff to a shine... If not, you'll probably never get it to shine right w/out reclearing
 
paintjobpro22 said:
I agree with everyone's comments. I'd like to add that the number of coats of clear you sprayed makes a huge difference in shine too. If I'm planning to buff a car I'm painting, I always spray at least 3 coats. In your case, seeing as your popps probably "dry-sprayed" the clear, I'd hope y'all laid down at least 4 or 5 that way you have something to actually buff to a shine... If not, you'll probably never get it to shine right w/out reclearing
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We put a few extra coats in critical areas such as the hood,roof,spoiler,and trunk lid, but a majority of the car has at least 3 coats.
 
If you aren't going rotary and/or have limited experience with one, I would recommend Surbuf pads on your PC with M105. I have had excellent results correcting with that combo and is way easier to learn and safer. (Also way cheaper than a rotary.) 2000 Grit is probably reaching its limits but should work.

I do my correction with the PC and use the rotary solely for jewelling.
 
You need to find someone who can color sand and then compound. Then polish....then polish again.....then finish polish and finally seal that bad boy. Lots of work. about 25 to 35 hours. Good luck and be careful with the wool pad if you are a newbie. The wool pad has a lot of bite with compound. A DA wont touch your job. Rotary is your friend here.
 
Paintxpert said:
You need to find someone who can color sand and then compound. Then polish....then polish again.....then finish polish and finally seal that bad boy. Lots of work. about 25 to 35 hours. Good luck and be careful with the wool pad if you are a newbie. The wool pad has a lot of bite with compound. A DA wont touch your job. Rotary is your friend here.
Click to expand...
As i've said... I am getting "okay" results by using the wool pad on my da, but can't really put pressure on it without it bogging down. I am able to achieve a good shine, but the wool pad eats up my m105 like its candy and seems to work better if I soak the pad and spin the excess water off. What is an affordable and effective rotary?
 
As Todd mentioned I would give the Megs. Cutting disks a shot. You are going to need at least 4. Keeping them brushed and clean of build up is key. I've done a couple sand and repolish jobs using this system and it is possible. It will also be your cheapest route.

The PC is going to be slower but it will work. The key is keeping rotation while working the product. You need the cutting action of the microfiber disks like wool a PC is not going to bog down with them. They are my goto now on delicate or unknown paint thickness due to their ability to slowly level paint. With M105 you have the advantage to work the paint and level combinded with the MF disks. If you don't have any experience with a rotary this will be for you. A wool and a rotary are going to take material down quickly then you still need to refine after that. What can happen is you can go past removing the sanding then still refine going further and without experience could go through the clear.
Finishing paint has been my career above detailing and I never thought anything would compare to wool on a rotary for removing sanding marks. With some patience it is possible with this process.
 
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