ZL1Mark
Allergic to One Product
I will admit, the surbufs do work better on the 3401 compared to the MF pads, but the surbuf pads work even better with a traditional DA.
Surbuf or MF pads for Flex 3401?????
- Thread starter Time 2 shine
- Start date
mikenap
New member
I will admit, the surbufs do work better on the 3401 compared to the MF pads, but the surbuf pads work even better with a traditional DA.
Agree.
Correcting a looong hood or roof one-handed with Surbufs on a DA is easy. Try using a 3401 one-handed when stretched out like that, and let me know how it goes....
PS Mark
A buddy of mine just sold his Flex, and I'm strongly considering getting rid of mine too. You're not alone.
ZL1Mark
Allergic to One Product
Right on, Mike. I seriously can't believe how much better I like using my G110v2 and Griots nowadays.
CEE DOG
New member
I don't have those other da machines so I can't compare. Mike makes a great point about the ********* being easier to use one handed but I am very happy with the machines I have and don't wish to use a machine that vibrates more than it rotates. Just me! I fully respect the fact that a huge qty of the people I very much respect prefer the d/a. Unfortunately a few years ago the GG ruined me ever wanting to try another one... Brand new, 2 hours of feeling like I'm chipping concrete and then a total power failure never to come on again led me to my smooth running Flex 3401 and now to my Flex PE-14 both of which I love. I suppose I should be happy the GG broke down after 2 hours...much more of that friggin vibrating and I may have lost my mind.
Todd@RUPES
Just a regular guy
There's not a huge learning curve with the 3401, if you can keep the pad flat and control the machine, you're gonna get the most out of it that you can. I feel a PC has a greater learning curve then the 3401. I've never been fully satisfied with heavy correction from the 3401. Before the MF/Surbuf pads combined with a traditional DA, the Flex 3401 did have more correction power, but now that's not the case, IMO. Also, I don't feel the 3401 finishes as well as a traditional DA. You're not forcing the edges of the pad into the paint with a traditional DA. For leveling, that's better, but not for finishing. The 3401 is NOT the king like it was for a while. Try the MF pads with a g110v2 or a Griot's DA, you'll understand where I'm coming from.
Mark you bring up a great point that I strongly agree with (and have been saying for a while).
The PC (or any true random orbital polisher) does have a learning curve and truly has far more potential then just a machine that is "safe for beginners". While it is true that it is safe for beginners, it is also an extremely capable style of machine that will produce better and better results the more the user learns it.
The Flex DA (and forced rotation DA's in general) are great as well. Not only do they offer a lot of power, but they are relatively simple machines as well. No matter what speed you use and no matter how much pressure you apply, the machine will always move the pad in the same pattern across the paint. This means once the user is comfortable with the techniques of machine polishing they are going to get results right near the limit of the machine almost immediately.
With a PC, the pattern the pad moves across the paint is constantly changing. It is the users ability to understand how to manipulate this pattern (and understand why they are manipulating the pattern) that really gives ROB's a huge potential. The random action and the ability to control it means, IME, that it is the most challenging style of machine to truly master (take to its full potential) yet it is the safest as well.
Too often a PC is thought of as a stepping stone to larger and more powerful machines such as rotaries or forced rotation DA's, and other than "press this hard, move the pad this fast" instructions, the true potential of these amazing little machines is not realized.
I too fell into this trap, I used a PC until I felt comfortable enough to sling a rotary, then spend years developing my technique with a rotary until I was able polish cars that have won some of the toughest competitions on the world to extremely high, swirl free shines. At the time I had so much more experience with a rotary then a PC that I had sworn off PC's in general as "beginner tools". Enter Kevin Brown who patiently tutoured and taught me the ins and outs of DA polishing. I still use a rotary, fairly often, but I spend a lot of time with a DA in my hand as well and now finish 99% of the cars I work on with a DA.
ZL1Mark
Allergic to One Product
Awesome, Todd! :rockon :bow
Considering the 3401 is a forced rotation polisher, why is a rotary so much harder to master? I would assume it the lack of random orbit, and dealing with holograms?
mikenap
New member
I've been playing around with a rotary lately too, and for some reason it's giving me fits. I was goofing around on David Strum's(weekendwarrior) "toy" car which is an old Bug soon to be repainted. For some reason, with wool and either 105 or PowerGloss, I couldn't control it at all with the bale handle. When I took the handle off and held it by the head, like I do with the 3401 and PC-style DA's, I had no problems with it except that the head heats up after a while. And with polishing/finishing pads and SIP and UF, no issues with the bale handle period, which is odd since I'd always heard wool was the least grabby and easiest to learn with.
I know holding a rotary so close to the spindle is sketchy but I was as careful as I could be. I still have a lot of practicing to do with a rotary, but I hate stick and bale handles on DA's so maybe I shouldn't bother with them on a rotary either?
Time 2 shine
New member
So in your guys opinion where does the 3401 shine? or should i say when does it come to the point where you say, this is a job for the flex.
CEE DOG
New member
When you do NOT want to use a rotary but you DO want to use a machine that is enjoyable and doesn't vibrate like a lunatic on pcp the way the other da's do...
Todd@RUPES
Just a regular guy
The Flex DA is a GREAT machine, technology has come forth that really improves the ability of other DA's.
With a foam pad, the Flex DA is still going remove more defects, quicker, than a Random Orbital DA. This makes the Flex DA amazing at as a one-step towel, since you can get more correction in less time. Also it is a great tool for beginners because it delivers relatively great results in little time.
Also, keep in mind that on forums you are reading opinions, there are still plenty of people who LOVE their Flex and are able to wring every last ounce of swirl-busting ability out of it. Arguing what machine is better is kind of like arguing about your favorite wax, politics, or religion.
CEE DOG
New member
Time 2 shine
New member
+1
ca.detailchick
New member
I still love my flex DA. I favor it over my rotary when I am worried about the paint being thin or on older cars .
The one thing that still bothers me is my hands or wrists hurt the next day from it where as I never have that trouble with the rotary or my other megs DA.
I also dont like that its such a light weight machine .
The one thing that still bothers me is my hands or wrists hurt the next day from it where as I never have that trouble with the rotary or my other megs DA.
I also dont like that its such a light weight machine .
ZL1Mark
Allergic to One Product
ZL1Mark
Allergic to One Product
I agree with you Mr. Helme.
On a side note, I can finish better with a RO better than the 3401. I'm not sure why, but I can only guess the forced rotation rotation has something to do with it? Should I be able to finish just as good with the 3401?
ca.detailchick
New member
You know how to use a rotary????
I'm impressed!
Honestly I dont use it that much . I prefer the Flex DA because of its safety .
But say I get a vehicle thats been off roading and gets deep bush scratched all down the sides the rotary coming out ,first choice.
Time 2 shine
New member
I remember you posting something over in the TID forum saying that the flex was to light and felt like a toy.:lol2:
mikenap
New member
I believe it's been attributed to the difference in stroke length of the 3401. Sometimes it finishes well, other times it just refuses to work.
ca.detailchick
New member
It still does feel like a toy!Thats proably why my hands hurt later......trying to push down on it to give it some weight like a real machine would have!
Todd@RUPES
Just a regular guy
Why do you do this to me Mark!?! You ask me the difficult questions!
When we are talking about finishing the paint, what we are really talking about is how fine of a scratch pattern we are leaving and how does that scratch pattern reflect, diffuse, or refract light. While we would like to imagine that we are truly making paint 1000000% flawless, we are not. The abrasives, no matter how fine, are going to leave some impression in the paint. This is because the abrasives, in order to work, have to be harder, than the paint's surface.
All abrasive mediums do diminish or reduce to some level when enough friction, over enough time, is applied. Even the sharper cutting edges of a 'non-diminishing' abrasive are going to round slightly. This is beneficial as a round 'polishing abrasive' is going to leave a significantly more even and shallow scratch pattern.
So your telling me when I polish paint to perfection, its not really perfect!!? Yes. The results of this are evident. Take the same paint which is has been polished swirl free (no visible marring to the naked eye) yet it is possible for one, which has been refined further, to have a crisper, more reflective finish. Take Menzerna PO106fa or PO85rd on softer paints. Both finish swirl free, but most would agree that PO85rd looks slightly better on softer paints. Why? Because it refines the microscopic scratch pattern even more, and ever so slightly more light is reflected more evenly. While we cannot see the difference (it would take a pretty strong microscope with proper lighting) there is one. Like a diamond, paint has different grades of flawlessness.
The reality is that once you top either surface with wax, you will not be able to tell the difference at all. This is because a wax or sealant is self-leveling, and will help fill in the super-microscopic scratch pattern and more light will reflect off of the leveled wax/sealant surface. This is also why it is hard to tell a difference in waxes/sealants when applied to an extremely refined finish. The theoretically more level wax surface really offers little benefit over the already super leveled paint surface.
If you goal is to create the highest gloss possible/polishable then your final polishing technique should focus on refining the paint to its highest level at the microscopic level.
In regards to the types of polishers, rotary, forced rotation, or random orbital: Each is moving the abrasive across the paint and each (with the right technique and product selection) is capable of reducing (most fine) abrasives to the point were it will create an extremely fine, high-gloss, swirl free finish. The main difference in finish quality is going to come from the pattern each machine pushes the abrasive across the paint.
With a rotary polish the abrasives will tend to attach to the pad, and move across the paint in a relatively linear fashion. With both a forced rotation DA and a Random Orbital DA, the abrasives will move across the paint in a curly-que fashion. Each has its advantages and disadvantages.
With a rotary the liner polishing motion tends to wear down one edge (the exposed edge of the attached abrasive) quickly and smoothly, which results in a quicker working time and a high gloss finish. However abrasive that have attached near the middle of the pad are not subjected to the same friction or speeds and can take a long time to break down. Also the abrasives on the outer edge can load with abraded paint residue quickly. For these two reasons, frequently cleaning your rotary polishing pad with a brush will do wonders for improving the finish quality of the paint.
With a forced-rotation DA, we are locked into an inverted curly-cue pattern that more resembles a W with tight loops at the top. This is beneficial because this jagged action is causing the abrasives to detach, roll around, and re-attach to the pad, which keeps them from loading with paint as well as causing a more complete reduction. However the sharp curve of the curly-cue is akin to digging your heel into ground and pivoting around sharply, and any bunching of the polishing pad in this area can cause an uneven scratch pattern. Again the key is keeping the pad clean from abraded residue and loaded with fresh abrasives.
With a random-orbital DA, you get the same advantages as the forced-rotation, with an added benefit. You can manipulate the pattern, from making tight curly-cues to making gentle, arching curly-cues by changing the pad's rotational speed in relation to its orbital speed. My using a speed of 3 or 4, but maintaining constant (firm) pressure the pad will create a more gentle pattern on the paint that is more linear, and less likely to force the abrasives in to the paint. (Think wetsanding with a flat piece of paper vs. a crunched up one, which is going to create a better surface?). It is this ability to manipulate the machine's pattern that gives it the ability to (potentially) create the highest levels of gloss.
However with any machine, experience is going to play a huge factor in the resulting finish.