Toyota Halts Sales of Eight U.S. Models After Recall
- Thread starter Len_nA
- Start date
not sure but i thought he meant here on DCotherwise never mind
Well, now perhaps I am the one who miscontrued JP's intent. I ass-u-me--d that since it is on every news broadcast every day that was the direction we were going. If I was mistaken...then in the words of the wonderful Ms. Emily Litella...Never mind
Poorboy
Founder Poorboy's World
Well, now perhaps I am the one who miscontrued JP's intent. I ass-u-me--d that since it is on every news broadcast every day that was the direction we were going. If I was mistaken...then in the words of the wonderful Ms. Emily Litella...Never mind
:lol2:
JaredPointer
COME AT ME BRO
I mean the people on the internet forums I visit and news reports I see. If potential car buyers are still choosing to buy Toyota vehicles, I think that says a lot about what people think about Toyotas.
And I think you are right about the shoe being on the other foot. People are pretty brand loyal. It's funny, though, that some people root against Toyota (or root for Chevy, Ford, etc) because they are not an American company. If you look at the assembly points and domestic part makeup, lots of Toyotas are as much American (if not more) than Ford or Chevy.
Just in my opinion(s) - do I think it is an issue? Yes. Do I think it is as big an issue as is being made out to be? Probably not. Does it bother me? Nope. Will I keep my Tundra? Yep. Would I buy a Ford or Chevy? Sure (as I almost did when I was big truck shopping). I think that Toyota (and others) came over here and changed the way the game was played and that a lot of "American boys" resent that. If Toyota wasn't any good, then you wouldn't see Chevy and Ford commercials benchmarking and making comparison to their products against them. You don't benchmark against the second and third best - you benchmark against the best so as to get better.
That might be my problem, based on my purchasing history I'm pretty far from being a brand loyalist. I think each manufacturer has vehicles in their line that could be considered class benchmarks (I'll steal from you -- excellent word choice) and yet not every vehicle manufactured by any of the auto makers is "the best". I also think that as far as quality, the field is nearing (if not already there) being level for domestics and imports.
I also agree about the point of origin (factory build). I have a friend from another forum and his tag line is --
I also agree about the point of origin (factory build). I have a friend from another forum and his tag line is --
(maybe not a direct quote).
cartoysautospa
New member
It is good that they stepped up to the plate....however they should have done I think it a different way as BMW did it in 1994-1995 with there engine and cylinder head problem. When you took your vehicle in for service , they checked your VIN # against there list and if it was a problem car they replaced the engine and gave you a 100k extended warranty. that was a 21k expense to replace a engine.
I remember one of my clients got his engine replaced and the next year they replaced his cylinder heads for free. this was never in the news... but the did the right thing............and therefore, the cars held there value.
The bad thing now is this ...........If you were to trade your Toyota for any other kind of car, expect to get low balled as No dealer, from what I have heard is going to offer you book value. they don;t want the risk, if this deal goes south.
I remember one of my clients got his engine replaced and the next year they replaced his cylinder heads for free. this was never in the news... but the did the right thing............and therefore, the cars held there value.
The bad thing now is this ...........If you were to trade your Toyota for any other kind of car, expect to get low balled as No dealer, from what I have heard is going to offer you book value. they don;t want the risk, if this deal goes south.
Len_nA
New member
I don't remember when BMW did that, but that IS the way to have great customer seervice in the face of a recall. Truely impressive, not the way Toyota did this.
Len_nA
New member
That's the first rumor I've heard regarding the Denso part making it over to this side of the world. It will be interesting to see if that's truly the case, not that I think anything was wrong with the CTS part to begin with.
As far as "folks who were gonna buy a Toyota are still going to buy one and the folks being the most vocal about this were anti-Toyota in the first place." - true in some cases, not true on others. Toyota's been asking for trouble for a long time, and those of us who criticize them aren't necessarily doing it because we were anti-Toyota to begin with. I don't like Toyota, or the Toyota fanboy mentality, BUT that said:
I'm not the one who is suing Toyota for hiding evidence of vehicle defects - one of their former attorneys is:
Alleged Data Cover-Up by Toyota Leads to Lawsuits
I'm not the MIT expert who was trained BY Toyota, who said that Toyota insiders saw these problems coming as far back as 1990's:
Toyota Recalls: Prius Problems Add to Quality Woes - TIME
I am not the one talking to the press about prematurely rusting truck frames (nice picture here, too):
NHTSA launches probe into 2000-2001 Toyota Tundra frame rust claims — Autoblog
And the hits just keep on comin'.
JaredPointer
COME AT ME BRO
The frame rust issue has been an ongoing discussion for some time - at least in the online world. That's not really new news.
I don't really know that much about Toyota's business practices, but I highly doubt that Toyota is the first company or car manufacturer to do any of the things listed in the article snippets. The fact that they are brought about by a former employee - bringing a wrongful termination suit at that - makes me even more skeptical. Most former employees probably have some kind of beef with their former employer. Why not go after the deep pockets? Also, what company wouldn't try to hide or lessen its flaws? That's why they have lawyers.
I've said before that I think the "mythical Toyota quality" was a bit over the top. Toyota had problems with their older trucks - I know firsthand. While I'll say again that I don't want to trivialize the issues related to this recall, I think a lot of the press surrounding this overblown. This is not Toyota's first quality issue, and if they continue building cars, it won't be their last. I think it's easy to poke fun and point out Toyota's problems right now, especially since they are/were the #1 car maker. I know two companies that are laughing that are only still around to laugh because they went to Washington begging for money and got a handout.
How, exactly, would another car maker have handled this given the situation? What exactly did Toyota do wrong here? I'll admit, that they dragged their feet regarding this. But then again, if they had rushed into something really quickly without analyzing the problem, what would be saying about them? Maybe they honestly thought that the floormats were the issue at first? I don't think anyone really knows for sure except the people involved. Personally, I think the fact that they stopped production and sales until they got a fix was the right thing to do, and I think it took some brass balls to make that decision.
I can only venture to think what any of the other large car manufacturers would have done if the shoes were swapped. From recent events and decisions, I think the only one I would trust to handle it correctly might be Ford. They have shown great decision making and profitability in the toughest times in the auto industry - AND they didn't take government life support. Maybe Toyota could learn a lesson or two from them right now.
I don't really know that much about Toyota's business practices, but I highly doubt that Toyota is the first company or car manufacturer to do any of the things listed in the article snippets. The fact that they are brought about by a former employee - bringing a wrongful termination suit at that - makes me even more skeptical. Most former employees probably have some kind of beef with their former employer. Why not go after the deep pockets? Also, what company wouldn't try to hide or lessen its flaws? That's why they have lawyers.
I've said before that I think the "mythical Toyota quality" was a bit over the top. Toyota had problems with their older trucks - I know firsthand. While I'll say again that I don't want to trivialize the issues related to this recall, I think a lot of the press surrounding this overblown. This is not Toyota's first quality issue, and if they continue building cars, it won't be their last. I think it's easy to poke fun and point out Toyota's problems right now, especially since they are/were the #1 car maker. I know two companies that are laughing that are only still around to laugh because they went to Washington begging for money and got a handout.
How, exactly, would another car maker have handled this given the situation? What exactly did Toyota do wrong here? I'll admit, that they dragged their feet regarding this. But then again, if they had rushed into something really quickly without analyzing the problem, what would be saying about them? Maybe they honestly thought that the floormats were the issue at first? I don't think anyone really knows for sure except the people involved. Personally, I think the fact that they stopped production and sales until they got a fix was the right thing to do, and I think it took some brass balls to make that decision.
I can only venture to think what any of the other large car manufacturers would have done if the shoes were swapped. From recent events and decisions, I think the only one I would trust to handle it correctly might be Ford. They have shown great decision making and profitability in the toughest times in the auto industry - AND they didn't take government life support. Maybe Toyota could learn a lesson or two from them right now.
cartoysautospa
New member
well it did take some kahunna's to make that call to stop production. The true question is how will it effect the "value" of current Toyota's at this moment ? It will be drastic until they get this fixed. Another point , Since now the government is involved and they have all of their scrutinizing engineers mulling over this problem, it will get dragged out much longer than Toyota would ever hope.
I would just hate to be a Toyota Dealer.....talk about economic depression,they are in it for a while !
I would just hate to be a Toyota Dealer.....talk about economic depression,they are in it for a while !
It is definitely taking a toll on used Toyotas at the auto auctions in this area.
They not only have fallen off in value, many aren't even selling.
The dealers that would normally jump on them are staying away from them because of concern that a possible liability could fall on them as the end seller if this pedal fix isn't the answer.
They not only have fallen off in value, many aren't even selling.
The dealers that would normally jump on them are staying away from them because of concern that a possible liability could fall on them as the end seller if this pedal fix isn't the answer.
Len_nA
New member
It wasn't "kahunna's ". It was Federal law - if you issue a recall that covers current cars and trucks being produced, and you don't have an immediate fix to implement on the assembly line, then you have to issue a stop-sell and production has to stop until you have a fix.
As to the current value of current Toyota's, I've heard about trade-in values taking a hit, but I haven't seen anything concrete yet. It would be hard to believe, though, that something negative hasn't happened to their resale values. What CharlesW posted sounds like what else I've seen.
Len_nA
New member
My wife processed discovery requests for one large automaker for ten years. Actually, this is the first time that any automaker, in recent memory (like the last two decades), has been accused of something like this. Not even at the height of the exploding Pinto gas tanks, GM pickup truck side saddle gas tanks, or the Firestone rollover, was an automaker accused by an insider of hiding safety related documents. If this is true, it's going to rattle some cages for a while, through out the industry.
If anything, most companies will, in a discovery request, hit plaintiff's counsel with a paper blizzard. Sometimes, plaintiff's counsel actually requests that very thing, completely printed out at the automakers expense. More than once, my wife worked overtime to fill a Ryder truck with bankers boxes full of documents.
black bart
New member
While the location of the GM fuel tank may have been in a bad place the big difference is it was something that may happen after an accident it did not cause the accident.
Buying a new vehicle with the denso throttle may not be a guarantee of no problem because the vehicles being recalled in Europe have the Denso installed in them.
Buying a new vehicle with the denso throttle may not be a guarantee of no problem because the vehicles being recalled in Europe have the Denso installed in them.
Len_nA
New member
No argument from me.
black bart
New member
I copied this from another forum.
I am a service center owner and technician of over 40 years in SC. Recently, a 2003 Camry LE w/ 70,000 miles came into my shop with a coolant leak. I consulted this forum and others to find proof of the same instance in the Toyota Camry. I write this in response to some posts I read on this site. This is to be informative for those in similar situations.
To do the exam, we pressurized the cooling system and put the car up on the lift. We immediately noticed coolant leaking from underneath the plastic INT intake Manifold in the rear of the engine. I also noticed a Large piece of foam rubber between the Intake Manifold and the Engine Block and Head. This was blocking our view of the leak. We could only see that the leak was behind the foam piece. The only option to discover the source of this leak was to remove the plastic intake manifold, which I did. After this was removed, it became obvious that coolant had been leaking a minor amount for quite some time due to build up between the cylinder head and block.
The only option left is to remove the head, which requires an exstensive disassembly (R and R cylinder head). After Loosening the bolts in sequence, I notice the head bolts in the back of the engine are loose. From my experience in the field, I can confidently conclude that this only means one of two things: The bolts were left loose at the factory, or the Bolts are stripped. ( I commonly have seen stripped bolts in the Aluminum Cadillac North Star Block discovered through leaking coolant.)
Next, I removed the head and sure enough, one bolt came out with aluminum in the thread...thus indicating a stripped bolt.
MY THEORY: The placement of the (insulation) foam rubber piece between the Intake Manifold and the engine block created an uneven dispersion of heat, creating "metal fatigue" in the aluminum block allowing the headbolt to strip.
If Toyota had out an Aluminum Manifold instead of Plastic, there would have been no need to insulate (w/ foam piece), thus eliminating the probem.
The only solution to this problem is to unforunately replace the engine. The cost to repair it otherwise would be substantial. This is an engine defect and we WILL be seeing more of this.
I am a service center owner and technician of over 40 years in SC. Recently, a 2003 Camry LE w/ 70,000 miles came into my shop with a coolant leak. I consulted this forum and others to find proof of the same instance in the Toyota Camry. I write this in response to some posts I read on this site. This is to be informative for those in similar situations.
To do the exam, we pressurized the cooling system and put the car up on the lift. We immediately noticed coolant leaking from underneath the plastic INT intake Manifold in the rear of the engine. I also noticed a Large piece of foam rubber between the Intake Manifold and the Engine Block and Head. This was blocking our view of the leak. We could only see that the leak was behind the foam piece. The only option to discover the source of this leak was to remove the plastic intake manifold, which I did. After this was removed, it became obvious that coolant had been leaking a minor amount for quite some time due to build up between the cylinder head and block.
The only option left is to remove the head, which requires an exstensive disassembly (R and R cylinder head). After Loosening the bolts in sequence, I notice the head bolts in the back of the engine are loose. From my experience in the field, I can confidently conclude that this only means one of two things: The bolts were left loose at the factory, or the Bolts are stripped. ( I commonly have seen stripped bolts in the Aluminum Cadillac North Star Block discovered through leaking coolant.)
Next, I removed the head and sure enough, one bolt came out with aluminum in the thread...thus indicating a stripped bolt.
MY THEORY: The placement of the (insulation) foam rubber piece between the Intake Manifold and the engine block created an uneven dispersion of heat, creating "metal fatigue" in the aluminum block allowing the headbolt to strip.
If Toyota had out an Aluminum Manifold instead of Plastic, there would have been no need to insulate (w/ foam piece), thus eliminating the probem.
The only solution to this problem is to unforunately replace the engine. The cost to repair it otherwise would be substantial. This is an engine defect and we WILL be seeing more of this.
Len_nA
New member
black bart - interesting. Could very well be another instance where more real world, physical prototyping would have caught this early on, like before production.
I think there's more to come.
I think there's more to come.
I doubt that it is that easy.
Look at the GM Dex-Cool fiasco and the intake manifold problems they had on several engine groups. Same way with Ford head gasket problems and Chrysler transmission and differential problems.
I don't think there is any way the manufacturer can:
1. Know for sure what a design will do until it is on the road in large numbers.
2. Simulate the abuse drivers will give the vehicles after they are on the road.
JaredPointer
COME AT ME BRO
I think one thing "we" keep forgetting is that mechanical things break. They are designed and built by humans, thus have a predisposition to failure. No one makes a perfect anything - let alone a vehicle.
And yes, how it is handled makes all the difference in the world.
And yes, how it is handled makes all the difference in the world.
cartoysautospa
New member
also remember this...if they didn't break the manufactures wouldn't be able to sell you more parts, and there would be no need for service facility's.
the cheapest part of owning a car is the initial purchase. It's replacing all of the parts and being able to afford to service it correctly is where the expense lies.
If cars never got dirty........we would be out of business !
the cheapest part of owning a car is the initial purchase. It's replacing all of the parts and being able to afford to service it correctly is where the expense lies.
If cars never got dirty........we would be out of business !