"Permanent" Coatings

On a local car page I saw a detailer tell someone that a trim coating (carpro dlux is what he was referring to) was permanent for the lifetime of the coating. His semantics gave me one good chuckle.

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The word "permanent" is synonymous with "lifetime guarantee". According to the Wisconsin Department of Consumer Protection
and our state legal system, cases involving claims against products with the term "lifetime guarantee" were warranted for a maximum of 6 to 7 years, depending on the product and court case with settled litigation and judgments that were (and are) used as precedents in other cases involving products determined to have "lifetime guarantees". It also implies that lifetime means the time a company or business entity that makes or distributes and/or sells the warranted product stays in business, NOT how long YOU own and use the product.
Personally, I would like to outlaw the term "lifetime guarantee" OR require a company that makes such claims for its product to have a escrow account with enough money to cover at least 30% of the quantity products sold at the retail price that is set aside for consumers in case of bankruptcy. The term "lifetime guarantee" is such a misleading term that influences consumer buying decisions about products.

That and the fact that MOST consumers do not read the fine print in warranties. We found this out when looking for replacement windows for our house. Most double and triple window pains are filled with argon gas to get the energy-star rating from the US Department of Energy. Unfortunately because of the nature of argon gas, it will start escaping the moment the window is filled and will be completely gone in 4 to 6 years at best and long-term window warranties DO NOT cover argon gas "insulation" and what you are left with is an empty pain without the original energy-star rating. Some window manufacturers do offer Krypton gas as the between pane insulation which last much long, but it is more expensive for the window (about $150 to $400 per window, depending on the number of panes and size of the window). Is it worth it? Yes, you plan on keeping the house more than 3 years. No, if you plan on selling the house in one or two years, but want to have a house with energy-star rated windows (at least initially when the windows were installed). Again, buyer beware!
 
Buy more products, buy new products! If I wax my car and top it with a topper, the wax still degrades into nothing even if I keep it topped with bi weekly applications of a sealant. The detailing market is a big scam. I buy a multi year coating, they recommend I put a booster on it. Why can`t the damn coating have said booster already in it? And why am I topping a $100 coating with a $15 booster? I bet in 2020 we`ll see the introduction of topper boosters, because the topper needs a boost too right?

I watched a Renny Doyle video on P&S`s interior cleaner. He said they make it "easy" yet, I ended up having to order 3 separate products. A cleaner, a enzyme thingy and some sort of Peroxide based whatever. How is using 3 different products to clean seats and carpets easy? Easy to me = 1 product.

THAT`S IT! After my next detailing order, I`m going back on detailing strike for another year.
Lemme know how that detailing `strike` thing works for you...if I had a nickel for every time I said the same thing I`d have enough $$ to buy 500ml of `Color Charged Cosmic Spritz`!


Beadmaker is topper booster no?

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I guess anything could be a topper/booster but since Beadmaker is more from the sealant family, it was a step backwards on top of a coating. Is fun stuff to use though if it fits into your plans.
 
I guess anything could be a topper/booster but since Beadmaker is more from the sealant family, it was a step backwards on top of a coating. Is fun stuff to use though if it fits into your plans.

No I get it. Was just pokin a little fun at the ol Beadmaker. It looks good but product reminds me of speed shine. Looks amazing slick as hell but need to apply weekly.



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Any thoughts on to why the wax degrades over time given the lack of `harmful exposure`?

Besides what Ron Ketcham noted, I figure that "natural" waxes just degrade over time, perhaps through mere exposure to air. But I really don`t know either.

I will say that Souveran lasts pretty long on a (properly) stored car, longer than I`d expected, and that sealants last *VERY* long...in fact, I`ve never had one die when not exposed to normal use. We`ll see when I get the S8 out of mothballs, it`s been stashed away with UPP on it (and that stuff isn`t much in the durability/protection dept.). The Crown Vic has only been sitting for a few years, but the FK1000P I applied in 2016 is still just fine.
 
I think it was only Optimum that suggested that Opti-Coat was permanent. It`s an SiC coating, rather than an SiO2 coating. I do believe it`s pretty much permanently on there if it`s applied properly. And so is the paint, but if you let the clearcoat sit outside for 5 years without doing anything to it, it`s not going too look too great...and same for the coating. Except the coating is way thinner than the clearcoat.

As far as the aftermath...I think you can look at the forums every day to hear about customers that thought a coating was going to be a force shield and are disappointed.


In my experiences with this, the original Optimum Opti-Guard product did indeed last past 5 years on my Black Grand Cherokee, through several thousand miles of highway driving between WA, Northern CA, to Texas and back many, many, times, seeing snow, sleet, hail, dust, rain, bugs, etc., and always looked great when I got there..

The first time I made that trip from WA to Texas (3,000 miles, 1-direction), with the Coating newly applied and cured, it looked like I had just washed that big Black Grand Cherokee.. It barely had any road dirt stuck to it.. Yes, this Coating was that good for that trip.. It diminished a bit over the next years, but it was still on there doing its job..

As far as I know, Optimum back then, was the one of the first companies that not only developed their own product, but did extensive testing for several years on real-time out in the world vehicles, before they released it to the public..

They eventually priced most of us Detailers out of their market as the price they charged us kept going up and up, and they wanted to lock me in to buy xxx amount of the product every year, or they would not sell it to me any longer.. I left...
Dan F
 
In my experiences with this, the original Optimum Opti-Guard product did indeed last past 5 years on my Black Grand Cherokee, through several thousand miles of highway driving between WA, Northern CA, to Texas and back many, many, times, seeing snow, sleet, hail, dust, rain, bugs, etc., and always looked great when I got there..

The first time I made that trip from WA to Texas (3,000 miles, 1-direction), with the Coating newly applied and cured, it looked like I had just washed that big Black Grand Cherokee.. It barely had any road dirt stuck to it.. Yes, this Coating was that good for that trip.. It diminished a bit over the next years, but it was still on there doing its job..

As far as I know, Optimum back then, was the one of the first companies that not only developed their own product, but did extensive testing for several years on real-time out in the world vehicles, before they released it to the public..

They eventually priced most of us Detailers out of their market as the price they charged us kept going up and up, and they wanted to lock me in to buy xxx amount of the product every year, or they would not sell it to me any longer.. I left...
Dan F

That`s because it was a lot better when it first came out. All the revisions they made (likely to try and improve gloss and application) ruined what was so great about the coating and I know several peeps that used it from early on who would agree with me. I coated my co-workers G37 in 2010 with it and he raved about it until he finally traded the car in last August. Granted it was very well cared for, garaged, and only had around 40,000 miles, but 9 years with no boosters and still showing life.
 
Bottom line. You`ll be lucky to get 2 years out of a coating. Imo they offer no additional protection to your paint either.
 
Heh heh...it just kills me that today`s coatings apparently aren`t as good as the OptiCoat I have experience with. That stuff was *maybe* worth the hassle, but if something`s inferior to it durability-wise? No thanks..
 
Even if they only last a year, applying a decent coating is less work than waxing with FK1000P.
 
Even if they only last a year, applying a decent coating is less work than waxing with FK1000P.

Huh...that`s a real YMMV as I find the FK *infinitely* easier..like, no comparison at all. Sure not arguing, just pointing out that different people are gonna have different experiences with this one.
 
Hey , I like to wax cars. It is the only thing that I get a lot of satifaction out of .Modern spray waxes are great , use once a month and you will have a very sharp car forever. Clay once a year , wash once a week and polish when nessesary. My prime concern is how the car looks. Spray wax is a 10 minute job
 
You may wanna try better coatings then...


I read part of your thread on your experience with coatings. I only made it about halfway through before my eyes went crossways. When I quit reading it appeared you had gotten more into toppings then coatings. Did you finally find something that performs (beads) like it did on day 1 (for more then 2 years) without toppings?

I understand claying when the surface becomes contaminated. That definitely helps some.
 
I read part of your thread on your experience with coatings. I only made it about halfway through before my eyes went crossways. When I quit reading it appeared you had gotten more into toppings then coatings. Did you finally find something that performs (beads) like it did on day 1 (for more then 2 years) without toppings?

I understand claying when the surface becomes contaminated. That definitely helps some.

Longevity, for me, is something best measured in in ways other than the mere passage of time.

We have 2 cars with considerably different usage patterns; both protected with same set of products and getting the same maintenance; product combo was rated 24-36 months. One car met the longevity expectations, the other far exceeded it (or would have if I didn`t re-do it early)

Car 1 was at 3 years and coating performance was probably 85% `like new` when I removed and redid it. Likely easily coulda gone another 2 years barring any changes to usage patterns. About 17k miles at time of redo.

Car 2 was at 2 years and was recently redone as coating had reached it`s functional endpoint with regards to hydrophobic/self cleaning performance. About 43k miles at time of redo.

Car 1 is about 5500 miles a year, no freeway, sits outside from April thru November but only really driven daily November thru April, short trips, no freeway.

For 1st 2 years it sat outside 24/7, 365 days a year. We live on a wooded lot so it would spend weeks in Spring and Fall covered in debris from Maple, Oak, Cottonwood and all manner of other trees, mixed with frequent rain, snow and frost.

Car 2 is year round daily driver, generally always garaged, 20k miles a year, 95% freeway.

All are in NE Ohio.

Same protection, varying usage far different likely outcomes. Freeway use, especially during winter, is very, very hard on a vehicles finish.` Merely sitting static outside as Car 1 has done most of its life seemed to have relatively little detrimental effect on coating. Here in the wintery NE, mileage w/ the consideration of how the car is used seems to be more indicative of longevity as opposed to the passage of time.

That said, I`m a `topper guy` so for my personal cars, I`ve probably never gone more than 3-4 months (Winter) without putting a little something extra on the paint, both for functional and entertainment reasons. Summer, maybe once a month.

Many of the coatings I`ve tried I applied on fleet vans at work, which *maybe* get a touchless tunnel wash 3 or 4 times a year and coming up on 3 years (I started all this madness in 2016-2017), the quality ones are still doing well. They stay `3ft away clean and shiny` with little to no intervention. They surely don`t bead as well as when applied but aside from something to take neat pictures of, beads/beading is functionally irrelevant to me.

Coatings to me are really no different than sealants with the added benefit of `supercharging` the characteristics of a really good sealant. Better protection for longer with less ongoing effort.

I kinda got all of our personal cars `set` last Summer and don`t really expect to do much to them for the next 3 to 4 years; wash, a little booster/topper now and that`ll be it. And the Summer-only toys will probably get to 5 years easy.

Everything begins degrading the moment after it is applied, coatings are no different...they just do it far more slowly than other LSP`s I`ve tried. Like aging, time takes its toll in everything but coatings help me `prolong the inevitable` as best I can.

Perhaps I should start thinking of boosters/toppers as Botox for my paint/coatings.
 
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Longevity, for me, is something best measured in in ways other than the mere passage of time.

We have 2 cars with considerably different usage patterns; both protected with same set of products and getting the same maintenance; product combo was rated 24-36 months. One car met the longevity expectations, the other far exceeded it (or would have if I didn`t re-do it early)

Car 1 was at 3 years and coating performance was probably 85% `like new` when I removed and redid it. Likely easily coulda gone another 2 years barring any changes to usage patterns. About 17k miles at time of redo.

Car 2 was at 2 years and was recently redone as coating had reached it`s functional endpoint with regards to hydrophobic/self cleaning performance. About 43k miles at time of redo.

Car 1 is about 5500 miles a year, no freeway, sits outside from April thru November but only really driven daily November thru April, short trips, no freeway.

For 1st 2 years it sat outside 24/7, 365 days a year. We live on a wooded lot so it would spend weeks in Spring and Fall covered in debris from Maple, Oak, Cottonwood and all manner of other trees, mixed with frequent rain, snow and frost.

Car 2 is year round daily driver, generally always garaged, 20k miles a year, 95% freeway.

All are in NE Ohio.

Same protection, varying usage far different likely outcomes. Freeway use, especially during winter, is very, very hard on a vehicles finish.` Merely sitting static outside as Car 1 has done most of its life seemed to have relatively little detrimental effect on coating. Here in the wintery NE, mileage w/ the consideration of how the car is used seems to be more indicative of longevity as opposed to the passage of time.

That said, I`m a `topper guy` so for my personal cars, I`ve probably never gone more than 3-4 months (Winter) without putting a little something extra on the paint, both for functional and entertainment reasons. Summer, maybe once a month.

Many of the coatings I`ve tried I applied on fleet vans at work, which *maybe* get a touchless tunnel wash 3 or 4 times a year and coming up on 3 years (I started all this madness in 2016-2017), the quality ones are still doing well. They stay `3ft away clean and shiny` with little to no intervention. They surely don`t bead as well as when applied but aside from something to take neat pictures of, beads/beading is functionally irrelevant to me.

Coatings to me are really no different than sealants with the added benefit of `supercharging` the characteristics of a really good sealant. Better protection for longer with less ongoing effort.

I kinda got all of our personal cars `set` last Summer and don`t really expect to do much to them for the next 3 to 4 years; wash, a little booster/topper now and that`ll be it. And the Summer-only toys will probably get to 5 years easy.

Everything begins degrading the moment after it is applied, coatings are no different...they just do it far more slowly than other LSP`s I`ve tried. Like aging, time takes its toll in everything but coatings help me `prolong the inevitable` as best I can.

Perhaps I should start thinking of boosters/toppers as Botox for my paint/coatings.


If you were a consumer who paid $1,000 to have this "special" coating installed would it bother you that the beading had stopped in less then 2 years?
 
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If you were a consumer who paid $1,000 to have this "special" coating installed would it bother you that the beading had stopped in less then 2 years?
You have to factor in when getting a $1000 coating job that $400-600 is for paint correction and prep that would needed to be done even if just waxing.

As a consumer then the “cost” of a coating is roughly $400-500. Is that worth it for two years? Depends on maintenance cost to me as im going to need wax or sealant applied every 3-4 months....



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If you were a consumer who paid $1,000 to have this "special" coating installed would it bother you that the beading had stopped in less then 2 years?
Not if it were competently explained to me that beading is for show, sheeting is for go.

If I could find a coating that is hydrophillic instead of hydrophobic, I`d be all over that. Don`t really care what my car looks like when wet, it`s what it looks like when it dries that matters to me.
 
Not if it were competently explained to me that beading is for show, sheeting is for go.

If I could find a coating that is hydrophillic instead of hydrophobic, I`d be all over that. Don`t really care what my car looks like when wet, it`s what it looks like when it dries that matters to me.

Now it`s not a coating though. But Soft99 Water Block Wax is designed to be sheeting properties only. If I only had more cars to test out on I would be over more products like this. I still have that Soft99 Glaco Mirror Coat Zero which is for side mirrors and the backing camera lens to also be hydrophilic so you have visual even when the vehical standing still or you have that vacuum sometimes where beads just hangs on to the mirrors. They do some cool stuff Soft99 I think. Bought the Soft99 Ultra Glaco glass sealant during the BF sales. Just need to be haveing a warm garage LOL.

The ceramic coatings that`s proffessional installed with a warranty on them. You mostly needs to be takeing in to the installer every 6 months. What they do then is a chemical decon and apply a topper on it. Not many coatings if any would 5 years without any chemical decon at least yearly and sometimes more often depending on the environment you live in and what kind of milage you have on the vehical. This is IMO something budgetplan has dialed in on his personal cars. Especially the spring decon clean up. With usually both a tar remover and iron remover IIRC. After a hard winter months where you have road salt covered roads this is usually needed to be done even on a coating. Also the topper that you use is very important that it keep somewhat of the coating performance and don`t degrade it. So many things comes in to play with coatings. But haveing a check up on the coatings performance on your customers vehicals I personally think is very important. As some customers just don`t take care of their vehicals as you want to. It`s enough that they just wash with a low end wash and wax car soap. And they have a huge drop in the performance on their coatings. So I would say it also depends on the customer on how well their coatings performance is. When you come to great consumer coatings you should not be haveing much problems getting it over 2 years or so with a normal daily driven use on it. Maybe some you may need to be useing a topper mid way for getting it`s performance higher during the coating life. If you expect from a coating to have the performance as have when newly applyied after 2 years it`s not going to happen. With a topper you might have 60%-80% and without any toppers 40%-60%of it`s initial performance from them generally speaking this is. It is like with a 6 months sealant and you just wash it and let it go. Usually around 4-5 months we as Autopians think it`s done and needs to be reapplyied. The same it is with ceramic coatings that their performance drops over time. And not starts to drop until the claimed longevity from it has passed. With coatings it`s also needed to be maintained great as it`s on for such of a long time vs a sealant. Though IMO a sealant after the winter months may benefit from a decon too and can have some performance left from them if topped up afterwards as well. Since coatings has suçh of a high performance during a long time it`s very important to keep it contaminants free as possible. Just my personally thoughts about coatings.
 
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