Thank Goodness

S

Setec Astronomy

Well-known member
The EPA is rolling back Obama`s fuel economy and emissions regulations!

Now that crap is gone and the shackles are off, how long do you think it will be before we see some fun cars again, like, say, a 707 HP Hellcat, an 840 HP Demon, or if you`re a bow-tie guy, a 755 HP ZR-1 or 650 HP Z06?

Hopefully they don`t come out with any of those too fast, I need time to save some money up.
 
Im more interested in seeing the return of V6’s instead of all this turbo 4 banger crap, but i fear its too late for that. Theyve already marketed it too hard as being a better car and consumers seem to be fine with it.
 
First off: I`m a fan of performance cars and will always sacrifice fuel economy for power and driving enjoyment. I also agree the regulations were driving the industry faster than technology could keep up, to the point of being unreasonable. However...

I`m more afraid of a spike in oil prices which would leave people with cars no one can afford to put gas in. Hopefully that day is a long way off as long as US oil production continues to be healthy, but the world is a strange place. With auto development cycles, it could take 3~5 years before the market could react. I remember the spike in oil prices around 2009~2010 and my wife daily drove out V8-powered Toyota Sequoia which got 15mpg on the highway. We were to the point where I was looking at riding my bike 15 miles to work each way so she could drive my car because we could barely afford the gas. At the first opportunity we dumped that monster and got something slightly smaller and WAY more economical. We`ve saved quit a bit of money in the long run even after gas prices fell.

I also wonder what this would do for potential exports of US cars and the global platforms US automakers build. All politics and regional prejudices aside, one of the biggest problems with exporting US cars is their size fuel economy. I don`t think Dodge/Chrystler/Ram builds a single vehicle you could afford to run in Europe or Asia due to gas prices, and they wouldn`t fit down some of the roads. Ford and GM may have to completely segregate their domestic and "rest of world" product lines which will raise production costs across the board for the whole company. Engines built for the US market won`t be competitive abroad.

I actually don`t mind some of the turbo 4 cylinder engines out today. The key is a well designed engine...not the number of cylinders. A couple examples from my experience.

My GTI with a turbo-four produces more HP/torque from a smaller engine and gets better gas mileage than the straight six in my E-46 BMW I owned years ago. It`s also very close to being as smooth as that inline six. While I miss the RWD of the BMW, from an engine standpoint I have no regrets.

The slow disappearance of vehicles with any hints of excitement and their replacement by large CUV`s with soggy dynamics bothers me way more than fuel regulations.
 
Desertnate- Given those high gas prices, I`m always a bit surprised that certain hi-po American cars are popular in Europe. There are even a fair number of supercharged (!) Crown Vics and Merc Marauders prowling the Autobahn. (Also some *really* built ones in The Kingdom, but hey they have the oil.)

And yeah, I agree completely about some of today`s turbo-4s! As long as the electronics don`t muddy the waters to much they behave really, really well...not at all like turbos of yesterday.
 
Accumulator said:
Desertnate- Given those high gas prices, I`m always a bit surprised that certain hi-po American cars are popular in Europe. There are even a fair number of supercharged (!) Crown Vics and Merc Marauders prowling the Autobahn. (Also some *really* built ones in The Kingdom, but hey they have the oil.)
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They are there, but more of a novelty and/or driven by those who can afford to fill them with fuel at the rate of $5.50 a gallon. Same goes for the Merc`s, Audi`s, and BMW`s with V8`s really. I lived in the UK for several years and was amazed to see an S-class or E-class Mercedes with a four cylinder engines. BMW 725`s with the four cyclinder engines were not uncommon either. Big luxury cars with tiny engines. I`m still not sure where they parked those land yachts...
 
jrock645 said:
Im more interested in seeing the return of V6’s instead of all this turbo 4 banger crap, but i fear its too late for that. Theyve already marketed it too hard as being a better car and consumers seem to be fine with it.
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Honestly there`s nothing wrong with turbo 4`s, I really think it`s the way to go. Weighs less and has the same if not more power, plus better economy.
 
To me driving dynamics has much more to do with handling than raw power. When you grew up in the 70`s-80`s you understand what lack of power is. Quick crisp handling on a curvy road is just a blast to me. That`s just me though.
 
Nizmo said:
Honestly there`s nothing wrong with turbo 4`s, I really think it`s the way to go. Weighs less and has the same if not more power, plus better economy.
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Generally I have to agree, but it depends on the application. For most small to medium sized cars I`d agree. However, I`ve driven a couple heavier cars and SUV`s which were not well suited. In those cases a boosted or even N/A V6 would probably have been best.

Coleroad said:
To me driving dynamics has much more to do with handling than raw power. When you grew up in the 70`s-80`s you understand what lack of power is. Quick crisp handling on a curvy road is just a blast to me. That`s just me though.
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So very true about the lack of power. The floaty, wallowing suspensions didn`t help matters either. Also agree on the quick handling on a tightly curved back roads. There are some I drive for fun where a larger, heavier car would be ill suited. However a small, tight, lightweight car is an absolute blast.
 
EPA or whoever, I just want to see more innovations with cleaner diesels.

The tech is out there to get the emissions to play nicely with their better fuel economy. takes less work to refine, more energy density per unit volume, just need the emissions to match.

Someday...
 
Desertnate said:
Generally I have to agree, but it depends on the application. For most small to medium sized cars I`d agree. However, I`ve driven a couple heavier cars and SUV`s which were not well suited. In those cases a boosted or even N/A V6 would probably have been best.
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Guess I didn`t take that into account. I drive smaller cars, so, heh. The turbo 4 in my GTI has been excellent, although I guess you could call it a hot rod version. On highway runs I can get almost 40 mpg. Gonna be hard to get it back from mother once the other car gets fixed, lol.
 
Coleroad said:
To me driving dynamics has much more to do with handling than raw power. When you grew up in the 70`s-80`s you understand what lack of power is. Quick crisp handling on a curvy road is just a blast to me. That`s just me though.
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I can remember back then it seemed like every time a magazine tested a performance car it was slower than last years model. It truly was a depressing time. If you would have told me back then what kind of cars we would be driving in 40 years I never would have believed you. We truly are living in the golden age of automotive performance. Even the firebreathers of the sixties would be shown the taillights of a modern car, and couldn`t touch it in drivability or fuel economy.
 
I still remember the tiny - believe it was either 1.5 or 2.0L - 4-cylinder BMW built to go race Formula-1 back in the early 80`s..

It had a big turbo on it and put out something like 1,200 hp, scared seasoned F-1 drivers when they put the pedal down, the turbo kicked in and it broke the tires loose as speeds well over 100mph...

BMW dominated F-1 for a couple of years back then until Ferrari complained enough, and then the ````logation rule came out and of course no one in their right mind was going to build a car that fast for the general public.. :)

I have always been intrigued by those fast 4-cylinders and awhile back, even considered buying an Audi A4 with that motor, but then heard nothing but heartache stories from owners who had to put lots of oil in them to go anywhere..

And when I asked the Audi Dealers nearest me about it, they would NOT comment on the oil use issue at all !!
So, no sale, Bucky... :)
Dan F
 
I see both sides of the argument turbo 4`s vs. 6 or 8 cylinders. As with my politics, I took the moderate approach - twin turbo 6.
 
Stokdgs said:
I still remember the tiny - believe it was either 1.5 or 2.0L - 4-cylinder BMW built to go race Formula-1 back in the early 80`s..

It had a big turbo on it and put out something like 1,200 hp, scared seasoned F-1 drivers when they put the pedal down, the turbo kicked in and it broke the tires loose as speeds well over 100mph...

BMW dominated F-1 for a couple of years back then until Ferrari complained enough, and then the ````logation rule came out and of course no one in their right mind was going to build a car that fast for the general public.. :)
Dan F
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Those big turbos in the 80`s were very raw. Jump in one of those air cooled 911 turbos, Nothing, nothing, bam! Those things took forever to spool up, then bam all the power was there. There was nothing progressive about those cars.
 
Stokdgs said:
I have always been intrigued by those fast 4-cylinders and awhile back, even considered buying an Audi A4 with that motor, but then heard nothing but heartache stories from owners who had to put lots of oil in them to go anywhere..

And when I asked the Audi Dealers nearest me about it, they would NOT comment on the oil use issue at all !!
So, no sale, Bucky... :)
Dan F
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Dan,

Those were troubled times for VAG turbo motors. The original 1.8t comes to mind actually. In those times oil quality and availability was "meh" at best and they were recommending ridiculous oil change intervals at the time. They`ve come a long way with their engines and oil quality has improved 10-fold. I would almost venture to say VAG leads turbo technology now-adays. I would buy their products with no hesitation (wait... I did...) in this day and age. Other makes are quickly adapting to the turbo technology though.
 
The Focus is on my radar if new car shopping is ever needed, but I was referring to the N54 (twin turbo, straight 6) BMW engine.
 
Nutbread said:
I can remember back then it seemed like every time a magazine tested a performance car it was slower than last years model. It truly was a depressing time. If you would have told me back then what kind of cars we would be driving in 40 years I never would have believed you. We truly are living in the golden age of automotive performance. Even the firebreathers of the sixties would be shown the taillights of a modern car, and couldn`t touch it in drivability or fuel economy.
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You know that was really my point. We lived through the dark days of the first CAFE, and the double-whammy of the full force of emissions controls at the same time, and like you said, every year the cars got worse, the power, the driveability. It was all doom and gloom. But then the car companies mastered the fuel injection, the 3-way catalysts, and the cars got better, and the performance renaissance of the 90`s was precisely because the combination of reduced mass and increased efficiency, just as applied to airplanes and race cars, can give longer range or increased payload, but the flip side of it is increased performance. If you increase the efficiency of an engine, you can do the same work with a smaller engine, or you can do more work with the same engine (and the same amount of fuel...increasing efficiency also reduces emissions, simply because you are burning less fuel).

We`ve already been in this new CAFE cycle for a few years, and we`re seeing higher horsepower numbers than ever. These kind of regulations drive investment in innovation and optimization, which ultimately results in better performance cars, not worse. I think this move is short-sighted. If in another 3-4 years it became clear that the requirements were outstripping the technology, that would be the time to dial it back.
 
Nizmo said:
Honestly there`s nothing wrong with turbo 4`s, I really think it`s the way to go. Weighs less and has the same if not more power, plus better economy.
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Yes, but they sound like a 4, and 4’s sound hideous when you have to step on it. Meanwhile a 6 lets out a little growl and just purrs along.
 
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