??? Multiple Pads vs On The Fly Cleaning

[JustJesus]

This post is weird for me. On some level, I fell like a complete newb for asking. But, on another level, I need to know the WHY aspect.

I've been detailing for just over a year, and have corrected a handful of cars. I've always gotten the results I was looking for and have left every single owner more than happy with those results.

The question I have is geared more toward part of the process of paint correction. I've seen, and continue to see, suggestions to new guys looking to polish that they should buy several pads for each step of the correction process. I've seen 4-6 pads (each type) about being average for a car. I *do* understand certain aspects of why you want multiple pads, i.e., longer pad life, cooling off period, cleaner pads, etc. I also understand that you want to clean on the fly, to clean off product and paint residue.

For those using more than two pads, WHY are you using more than two?

To me, it seems a little excessive. Here's how I'm understanding it: you start with a clean pad. You prime the pad. You then do your 3-4 drops of product. Polish a section. Wipe off the panel. Clean on the fly. Repeat the process (til satisfied with results). THEN, move onto a new section. Get a new pad. Prime the pad. 3-4 drops of product....and so on and so on. It seems like you're using *more* product this way by having to prime each new pad.

If one simply cleaned on the fly, you'd have an alread-primed pad and move on.

I tend to use two pads. Cuz of heat. Once I've used a pad for a section pass, I remove it and put it aside to let it cool off while I work a panel with a different pad. Then clean on the fly and repeat that process.

I know one argument that will surely pop up is that you extend your pad life by having several pads. I believe this is true to a point. Sort of like having two cars. You switch off cars, say evenly, to make this simple. If one car has a shelf life of 200k miles, and you expect it to last 10 years, and it's the same with the other, by switching off cars you will have each car last 20 years. Yes, it lasted "longer" but from a different perspective, it still only lasts 200k miles. The thing is now you have spent twice as much to get the second car. In the end, it seems like a wash to me. I tried having a basic example to get my point across, but not sure if it was clear.

Anyway, I have mad respect for several Autopians, and will welcome any feedback, suggestions, comments, etc. I'm just looking to learn, and if I can be more efficient in the process, then I'm all for it.

Thank you for taking the time to read this.

 

[nickclark08]

We think a lot alike. I am about to buy pads and product for my first foray into machine polishing, and this is one of the many questions I have.

Definitely looking forward to the responses you receive.

 

[Poorboy]

I have always tended to assign a pad to a task ... for compounding I like to have a dedicated pad(s) .. for light polishing I have a few depending what kind of polish and a separate one if it is an AIO.

For Glazes I like to have a couple, one for light and one for dark colors .. again depending on the ability of the product .. cleaner or not ... for waxes and sealants I also like to have a couple different pads to switch products to get a different desired look ..

now for a newbee just getting started we usually suggest a 6 pack one cutting(orange), one polishing (white) two finessing (black) and 2 finishing (red) ( Lake Country colors )

this combination has proven to work over the many years we have sold pads .. people then add on more as they get more use and experience on what works best for them.

 

[donbeezy]

1) time. cleaning pad on the fly takes a little longer then simply taking the pad off and putting new one on is quicker.

2) pad gets too clogged up to clean on the fly anymore. some of these cars I tackle have nasty oxidation and will gum the pad so badly it won't clean on the fly anymore

3) faster cut/polish. a fresh pad always cuts faster and finishes down better IMO

other reasons you have mentioned already. Heat on the pad and longevity of the pad.

 

[Justins00ss]

+1 ^^^

 

[mnehls86]

As foam pads clog up there performance decreases. Cleaning on the fly only works a few times at best before moving to a new pad in my opinion. Microfiber pads I seem to be able to get a little cleaner and use a little longer but not much. Yes, you can do an entire car with one pad but how much longer might you have to work since your pad isn't cutting to it's best capability. I don't have too many pads either (about 4 of each) but I always think about ordering more. Ideally I would love to have a fresh pad per panel.

 

[JustJesus]

...

now for a newbee just getting started we usually suggest a 6 pack one cutting(orange), one polishing (white) two finessing (black) and 2 finishing (red) ( Lake Country colors )

this combination has proven to work over the many years we have sold pads .. people then add on more as they get more use and experience on what works best for them.

Thank you, Poorboy. I totally get that part. I actually have used the different "colors" for the different polishes. Generally, orange/cut, white/polish (or burgundy/yellow respectively for the Megs stuff).. I've used CG blue pads for the glazes (love this combo)

When I started, I bought one each of the 7 pads avail on the CG Hexlogic line, and added a couple of orange and white pads. This proved a good move, and eventually bought more orange/white as I did more work, and eventually other MFG lines and types.

1) time. cleaning pad on the fly takes a little longer then simply taking the pad off and putting new one on is quicker.

2) pad gets too clogged up to clean on the fly anymore. some of these cars I tackle have nasty oxidation and will gum the pad so badly it won't clean on the fly anymore

3) faster cut/polish. a fresh pad always cuts faster and finishes down better IMO

other reasons you have mentioned already. Heat on the pad and longevity of the pad.

Donbeezy, thanks.

1) LOL, now I'm going to have to go and time it! Thanks, man, thanks.
2) & 3) - okay. Hadn't considered these, especially 3.

Thanks guys !

 

[donbeezy]

Donbeezy, thanks.

1) LOL, now I'm going to have to go and time it! Thanks, man, thanks.
2) & 3) - okay. Hadn't considered these, especially 3.

Thanks guys !

let me know how the timing goes. say it takes 2-3 mins to clean on the fly but you had to do it 10 times on a vehicle. thats possible 30 minutes you can be doing something else (polishing exhaust tips or polishing windshield etc..)

also factor in how tired your arm gets from scrubbing the foam pad, or how your palm/hand feels after the doing mike phillips "cleaning your pad on the fly" method.

btw, i bought the 7 pack of CG hexlogic off amazon too. i thought they were neat until i realized i only used the white/orange too. i think buff and shine makes hex logic pads because the foam and the backing velcro area look identical. you can buy B&S pads $30 for 6 pack of you choose here at autopia. most of the times i just get orange cause they finish down so good i hardly have to follow up with white

 

[ShawnF350]

I do on the fly cleaning too. Running the pad against a terry towel might get me a bit further before I clean it. But as Don said, the pad performance drops off.
I biught 5 of every LC flat pad when I started detailing. Changing every panel or two.
My new method is using just two pads . After a panel I run it through the pad washer and set it aside. Then once I dirty the next pad, I clean and grab the one that sat for a few minutes.
This works for a weekend warrior and a few paid jobs, but if I'm doing this every day, it would be a big time waster.

 

[mjlinane]

I'm a "clean on the fly" guy. Going to "up my game" by using pad washer every couple of panels, though.

 

[JustJesus]

We think a lot alike. I am about to buy pads and product for my first foray into machine polishing, and this is one of the many questions I have.

Definitely looking forward to the responses you receive.

Didn't see this post. I'm also looking to buy more pads (been reviewing/researching) so this question kept coming up in my mind. Glad I posted, as now you and maybe others (and me!) will get some answers!

As foam pads clog up there performance decreases. Cleaning on the fly only works a few times at best before moving to a new pad in my opinion. .... I don't have too many pads either (about 4 of each) but I always think about ordering more. Ideally I would love to have a fresh pad per panel.

Alright. With the responses I've received, it's coming together. Thank you all, nickclark, justin, poorboy, donbeezy, mnehls, for the feedback. It is MUCH appreciated.

Now, just going to finish up my pad comparisons. Might even break it down into a spreadsheet to weigh in costs. I'm such a nerd sometimes.

 

[ShawnF350]

If volume is low and this is a hobby, just get a pad washer.

Edit : to add, I think a rotary works best with one. A DA kinda throws water everywhere and doesn't clean as well.

 

[Poorboy]

Didn't see this post. I'm also looking to buy more pads (been reviewing/researching) so this question kept coming up in my mind. Glad I posted, as now you and maybe others (and me!) will get some answers!




Alright. With the responses I've received, it's coming together. Thank you all, nickclark, justin, poorboy, donbeezy, mnehls, for the feedback. It is MUCH appreciated.

Now, just going to finish up my pad comparisons. Might even break it down into a spreadsheet to weigh in costs. I'm such a nerd sometimes.

also remember that your pads need to match your current and possible future machines .. price comparison only works within a brand and style .. some pads last a long time and some don't .. some may work well with certain products and other not .. a lot to take into consideration ... are the backings glue or infused? are they flat or beveled?

 

[Brownie]

Hey
All valid points above. One key reason that I didn't see mentioned upon my quick read is managing pad weight. Pad weight is crucial to the performance of your orbital machines. Regardless of whom mfg. it. The counterbalance assembly is designed to offset the weight of the backing plate, foam/microfiber pad, and a specific amount of liquid. An average 1" 5.5" foam pad weights roughly 24g's. As the reticulated, open cell foam absorbs the compound/polish; the pad weight can reach more than three times the original weight. In other words, 75g+.

This excessive weight will contribute to two key things:
Vibration- this will contribute to fatigue and ultimate numb hands or even nerve damage if done extensively.
Foam cell deterioration or pad breakdown- The excessive weight throwing side to side will generate tension on the cell structure of the foam. As a result, this tension/friction generates heat and will soften and break down the foam..

Rotating pads after 2 panels or so (Fender, Door) is not a recommendation to drive more pad sales. In the long-run, it'll extend the life of your pads, reduce fatigue and potential nerve damage from exposure to vibration.

 

[RaskyR1]

A lot of factors come in to play IMO, but I tend to use more pads for the initial cutting step as you're removing far more material and that's more crud that loads up your pads. On average I will use 4 pads for cutting step on a typical sedan (not including intricate areas with 1"-3" pads). I will clean my pads after each section with air and/or a towel. The towel is more to soak up excess product and the air is to remove spent abrasives and residue. On the refining steps I will typically use 2-3 pads for a typical sized sedan. I don't have an issue with pad life, but I'm also not running my tools at max speed with excess pressure either.

 

[Stokdgs]

If we are talking Foam, I'm with all the guys that change pads frequently, clean the pads with a towel or something between change-out, and absolutely know that a clean pad will Always work better, faster, and give you better results..

Once the pad gets full of stuff it just can't possibly perform as well as one with clean pores, right ?

Rotary Power gets the correction (along with all the associated ga-ga that comes out of dirty paint) done quicker, so I have to change pads often, but I would rather wash a half dozen pads in the soaking bucket at the end of the day and save time not fussing around with what - 2 pads per vehicle ???

Perhaps you are just detailing very clean paint all the time so the pads don't really get that dirty or you are not correcting very far before you stop ?

Even after all the incredible stuff out there today - foaming, deep cleaning foaming, decon, decon foaming, claybars, claystrips, rubberized towels, mitts, etc., I don't know what others are seeing, but I still get a lot of gunk OUT of the paint that is not going to come out any other way except by a compound..

So, I use a lot of pads, but lucky for me, its only a couple choices, and they absolutely rock the paint with my Makita all the time...
Dan F

 

[Brownie]

As Rasky mentioned, frequently switching to new pads is one of the most important strategies when correcting paint. The majority of the work is done during this step. Sometimes multiple buffing cycles per panel...all again, leading to liquid absorption by the pad...increase weight. This combined with pad to paint surface tension--> FRICTION--> Heat...the pads will deteriorate quicker. This IMO, is more critical than "Residue Control", which others refer to. Yes, residue control is critical on single stage paint finishes...but pad weight is far more critical to pad life and user experience.


IMO a best practice is to run a pad conditioner brush against the pad after every buffing cycle. Upon the completion of each panel (This will kick off a gram or so of product), I blow the pad out with 90psi compressed air (Inside ==> Out) (This will kick off 1-2grams) After 2 panels or so, I'll switch to a new pad. Yes, I have an endless supply of pads, because I work for a mfg....but I'd do this regardless?


Improved Correction
Improved Finishing
Improved Comfort
Extended Pad Life
Extended backing plate life - saturated pads will often lead to product soaking through the Velcro loop. This will in turn load the hook on your backing plate which will reduce its' adhesion...

 

[JustJesus]

let me know how the timing goes. say it takes 2-3 mins to clean on the fly but you had to do it 10 times on a vehicle. thats possible 30 minutes…
[B&S] makes hex logic pads because the foam and the backing velcro area look identical. you can buy B&S pads $30 for 6 pack of you choose here at autopia

WHOA. Forget the timing idea! No thanks. Yup yup. I won’t be buy CG Hex anymore and HAVE been looking at the B&S, and from Autopia, no less. J Better price per pad, as a 6 pack, and from ACC.

…
My new method is using just two pads . After a panel I run it through the pad washer and set it aside. Then once I dirty the next pad, I clean and grab the one that sat for a few minutes. ….

Kind of the same as me, less tha pad washer. That’s not something in my near future.

I'm a "clean on the fly" guy. Going to "up my game" by using pad washer every couple of panels, though.

Yes, but you’re fancy!

If volume is low and this is a hobby, just get a pad washer.

Edit : to add, I think a rotary works best with one. A DA kinda throws water everywhere and doesn't clean as well.

Pad washer and rotary are not in my immediate future. Baby steps. J

also remember that your pads need to match your current and possible future machines .. price comparison only works within a brand and style .. some pads last a long time and some don't .. some may work well with certain products and other not .. a lot to take into consideration ... are the backings glue or infused? are they flat or beveled?

Funny enough, I actually was taking current/future machines into account. My pricing was being based on typical flat foam pads (for now). Hmmmh. Backings being glued or infused? Now that’s new to me!

Hey
All valid points above. One key reason that I didn't see mentioned upon my quick read is managing pad weight. Pad weight is crucial to the performance of your orbital machines. Regardless of whom mfg. it. The counterbalance assembly is designed to offset the weight of the backing plate, foam/microfiber pad, and a specific amount of liquid….

Brownie, that’s a lot of info there! I will be buying some thin pads as well, as I did take rotational mass into consideration. Eventually, I’ll have a decent selection of pads. Different tools for different jobs, right?

A lot of factors come in to play IMO... The towel is more to soak up excess product and the air is to remove spent abrasives and residue… I don't have an issue with pad life, but I'm also not running my tools at max speed with excess pressure either.

Oh yeah, I forgot about the smaller pads. Not so much a concern here, though. I do the towel first, followed up by the nylon brush. No air system yet. I also don’t like to run my equipment at full pressure or max speed J

If we are talking Foam…

Perhaps you are just detailing very clean paint all the time so the pads don't really get that dirty or you are not correcting very far before you stop ?

Even after all the incredible stuff out there today - foaming, deep cleaning foaming, decon, decon foaming, claybars, claystrips, rubberized towels, mitts, etc., I don't know what others are seeing, but I still get a lot of gunk OUT of the paint that is not going to come out any other way except a compound..

So, I use a lot of pads, but lucky for me, its only a couple choices, and they absolutely rock the paint with my Makita all the time...

Dan F

Yup, foam. So I got the feel for what the consensus is around here. And with the various posts, my question has been answered. AND, I’m getting additional info from this thread!
I’ve actually dealt with some pretty nasty paint. One guy drove from So Cal to Arizona on a weekly basis. Didn’t care to wash it either. He figured the hail and rain storms would wash away the crap left by the dust storms. I clay’d that car (this was before I invested in Nanoskin) for hours. SO MUCH contamination.

I’m still not into the rotary just yet. I’m not opposed to the idea, but like I mentioned above, baby steps. One thing at a time.

As Rasky mentioned, frequently switching to new pads is one of the most important strategies when correcting paint. ….

IMO a best practice is to run a pad conditioner brush against the pad after every buffing cycle. Upon the completion of each panel (This will kick off a gram or so of product), …Yes, I have an endless supply of pads, because I work for a mfg....but I'd do this regardless? ...

I have to agree with that. I do run such a brush after I remove the reside with a cotton towel. Sounds like I might have to look into using air. But I’m sure that will be way, wayyy down the line. Thanks for the additional post, Brownie.

Thank you ALL for the posts.

 

[TuxedoTaurus]

I carry a small kobalt compressor when doing mobil, I blow the pads after each section. I have found it to be more efficient. It removes more spent product and does not put excess wear on the pad. After a panel or two I change pads.

Sent from my D6708 using Tapatalk

 

[jrock645]

I usually find myself needing 4 full sized pads per step, plus a couple of 3".