Lets talk diesel trucks

[JBM]

I had 3 powerstroke 7.3's and all of them had cam sensors that left me out in the cold, one in the middle of an intersection with 6000 pounds in the dump body lol. Once replaced they never bothered me again, but it still chaps my ass thinking about those.

 

[Oldfordisbetter]

I had 3 powerstroke 7.3's and all of them had cam sensors that left me out in the cold, one in the middle of an intersection with 6000 pounds in the dump body lol. Once replaced they never bothered me again, but it still chaps my ass thinking about those.

I know a fair amount of guys carry a spare in the glove box

 

[RDKC]

Awesome read, thanks for the input. Budget I'm looking at is somewhere around 12-15k.

From what I've been reading, part of the appeal with the 03+ Fords despite some engine issues is the transmission is supposedly pretty stout.

You should be able to find quite a few Ford's or early 2000's Dodge's. If you look to a GM you just have to keep the injectors in mind. They do have minimal emissions equipment and, contrary to popular belief, the 2001 Duramax produced more horsepower and torque than the Power Stroke or the Cummins of the same year.

I'd imagine the Ford transmission is a good one but don't have any experience past the E4OD/4R100. I've never really heard any complaints about it to say the least.

Good post RDKC. I have a 97 with the TTB, dont like it, but dont really want to go thru the trouble of putting a straight axle in.

and you say GM has always paired the Duramax with the Allison? I didnt know what trans the early ones had, or when they started with the Allison

The TTB is a good axle, it's just a finicky axle. (Babble time) To start with, Ford flipped the spring hangers on the fronts of the old body style. The hanger/shackle would normally be in the rear to allow the axle to move up and rearward. This allows the shackle to absorb some of the motion and allows the axle to travel in a more natural path which improves the ride quality. With the factory set up, the pivot point at the rear, the axle is forced to go forward over an obstacle and forces back into the pivot point and creates a less smooth ride. They make kits to reverse this, but they're not cheap especially if you can't do it yourself. The two halves of a TTB pivot in a bushing, if the bushing has excessive wear it creates a handful of problems. It can cause your steering to feel loose, your steering to wander, and obviously a worse ride. It also effects your alignment (if the axle isn't sitting right in the first place the alignment isn't going to be good off the paper.) Then there are the springs. The springs on an F-250 with a TTB actually have a higher weight rating than the axles off an F-350 with a solid axle of the same year. Why? The springs are actually what's holding the axle down. So, if your springs/bushings wear you come into the problem mine has. You can't get the alignment right and it won't hold.

Now, off the babbling, yes, GM has always put the Allison behind the Duramax in their trucks. The Duramax powered vans use a different transmission.

I had 3 powerstroke 7.3's and all of them had cam sensors that left me out in the cold, one in the middle of an intersection with 6000 pounds in the dump body lol. Once replaced they never bothered me again, but it still chaps my ass thinking about those.

Yes, I forgot to mention the CPS. Mine hasn't went out on me but I had to replace a friend's for him when his '99 wouldn't start. It's a good thing they're cheap, right?

I know a fair amount of guys carry a spare in the glove box

I do, and almost everyone I know with a 7.3L does.

Now, off to type a new post for Dodge/Ram.

 

[RDKC]

I can honestly say that I've never been a Cummins fanboy, so these might be a little shorter than the others. I've also never owned one so I've never had as much of an inclination to study up.

Dodge

5.9L 6BT (1989-1998): The 12-valve. Let's start with the negative for this one. Unless it has already been replaced/upgraded you can pretty much count on replacing the lift pump and having problems with the killer dowel pin (holds the timing gearcase and it likes to come out). However, these engines are pretty cheap and easy to get power out of. You're still stuck with a mechanical fuel system though and all of the horror story titled "Dodge."
5.9L ISB/ISB CR(1998-2007): The 24-valve. Pretty much the same as above except the dowel pin. You also have to worry about the block cracking, but there's no way to tell if/when that's going to happen and the only fix is a new block. These do have a better, and electric, fuel system and various other internal upgrades over the 6BT.

Dodge is currently using a 6.7L Cummins that, from what I've heard, is still a great engine. However, I try to avoid DPFs.


The biggest problem with a Dodge diesel is Dodge. The Cummins engine is a beast of an engine with amazing potential. Some people hate the sound (it's definitely different than the V8's) and some people laugh that it's a 5.9L 6-cylinder but they are great engines. However, the automatic transmissions that Dodge chose to accompany the Cummins is atrocious. If you can get a manual (5-speed or 6-speed) transmission behind the Cummins you should be set for a while. You are practically guaranteed to have transmission problems if you choose an automatic though. The Dodge chassis is also less than ideal for most of the years (IMO) but, due to the popularity of the Cummins, there are fixes for practically everything.


Here is a little rant now:

No diesel should roll coal on the street! If you have excessive black smoke coming out of your exhaust, I would like to personally thank your douchebaggery for the current emissions standards for diesels. Thanks to you, our cleaner than gas burning vehicles are now hindered with costly diesel particulate filters, diesel exhaust fluid, and sensors that collect our soot to burn it off later while reducing our MPG's and performance. You, sir, are the guy that put the curling iron somewhere internal so they have that wonderful sticker that says "For external use only" now. We'll completely ignore the fact that diesels burn both more efficiently and greener than gasoline engines do, because of you we rushed out this stuff so we end up with engines like the 6.0L and 6.4L. Rant over.

There are also options for a 1/2-ton diesel and will be more in the coming years. Dodge currently has a 3.0L EcoDiesel in their 1/2-tons (sorry, Ram). Chevy is releasing a 2.8L Duramax and Nissan a 5.0L Cummins. Ford has no current plans of putting the 3.2L in their trucks as of now. I know these are well out of your budget, but I think it's pretty amazing and I'd like to share. I've always said the only thing that would get me in another half ton is a diesel, well, now they're doing it.

 

[House of Wax]

Great stuff man. Thanks for your input.

 

[XxBoostinxX]

Here is a little rant now:

No diesel should roll coal on the street! If you have excessive black smoke coming out of your exhaust, I would like to personally thank your douchebaggery for the current emissions standards for diesels. Thanks to you, our cleaner than gas burning vehicles are now hindered with costly diesel particulate filters, diesel exhaust fluid, and sensors that collect our soot to burn it off later while reducing our MPG's and performance. You, sir, are the guy that put the curling iron somewhere internal so they have that wonderful sticker that says "For external use only" now. We'll completely ignore the fact that diesels burn both more efficiently and greener than gasoline engines do, because of you we rushed out this stuff so we end up with engines like the 6.0L and 6.4L. Rant over.

I couldn't agree with you more.

 

[RDKC]

Hopefully it helps a bit. I know a lot of people are pretty lost when it comes to the diesels. I just wish we had more options, they're so much more efficient.

One last bit of info that you'll probably notice if you test drive a couple different ones.

I'll rate the three that will most likely be in your budget from smoothest/quietest to roughest/loudest (stock and IMO):

1. Duramax. If you want a loud truck don't look to GM. They sound great but a built Duramax tends to be quieter than a Cummins with an exhaust.
2. 6.0L/7.3L ('99-'03) Power Stroke. I can't tell much of a difference between noise levels and smoothness between these two. The electronic fuel system really helped smooth out the idle on the 7.3L.
3. 5.9L Cummins. By far the loudest and roughest running of them all. It fits the definition of a diesel shaker.

Another bit of info I forgot about the 7.3L. The '99 and up 7.3L turbo's are prone to turbo surge. It's about a $100/fix if you can do it yourself. The factory turbine is pretty poorly designed but can be replaced with a "Wicked Wheel" to cure the problem.

Told you I can go on forever. Lol

 

[House of Wax]

Please share as much as you care to.

I'm leaning heavily towards an 03-07 F-250. I've got a lot of reading/learning/digesting of information to do to decide if I want to take the plunge

 

[JBM]

Everything with diesels cost more to fix and maintain. My 01 water pump was supposedly 800 to replace. (it was under warranty), oil changes are triple, even more then triple with synthetic.

A gasser would allow you to purchase a few years newer.

 

[RDKC]

Everything with diesels cost more to fix and maintain. My 01 water pump was supposedly 800 to replace. (it was under warranty), oil changes are triple, even more then triple with synthetic.

A gasser would allow you to purchase a few years newer.

Yes and no. Depending on the year and make a lot of accessories are shared between the gassers and diesels (I.e. the alternator on my '97/is the same one they used on most of their gassers). Body, chassis, suspension, etc. components tend to be shared across weight class and are not dependent on engine displacement or fuel type. The engine and the internals do tend to cost more than your average Gasser but that tends to be negated by the longevity of those components vs their gas equivalents. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying gas engines are built like crap, its just a different machine.

Diesel engine tend to have thicker components to handle both the higher compression ratios and increased torque (would you run stock pistons,rods, and crank in a 350 SBC with 500 lb.-ft. Of torque?). A diesel engine also revs a lot lower, normally redlining below 4,000 RPM. You're looking at a redline of 7-8,000 on most gas engines (we're not talking big blocks here). The higher average RPM obviously creates more wear on components. So, yes, they cost more but they tend to be replaced less often. (Bear in mind this is in my opinion based off my experiences, other experience may vary.)

Now, as far as maintenance, it costs a little bit more. I wouldn't say triple in all cases though. Speaking of the two I know by heart, my 7.3L takes 16 quarts (I run a larger filter, factory capacity is 14) of diesel rated 15w-40, my Duramax takes 10 qts. Yes, oil for a diesel costs a little more but if you catch sales its not too bad. Filters for both run around $10. All in all, my last oil change on my Dmax cost me about $50 doing the work myself, that's the same price you'd pay at a shop for a 6-cylinder unless you catch a promo. Glow plugs vs. Spark plugs is almost a moot point anymore with current technology since spark plugs can easily last 100-150k as long as the engine doesn't experience problems that cause them to prematurely fail. However, I do love not having to worry about plugs, wires, distributors, rotors, coils, or whatever other ignition system its equipped with. My Power stroke needs glow plugs but still starts when it's cold as long as I plug her in and the Dmax needs 7 of 8 and I know it'll start down to 20* without being plugged in.

I'll try to post some links for Ford/6.0L info for you once I get home, House.

 

[Oldfordisbetter]

Why do you run a larger filter on the Powerstroke? Thanks

 

[House of Wax]

Yes and no. Depending on the year and make a lot of accessories are shared between the gassers and diesels (I.e. the alternator on my '97/is the same one they used on most of their gassers). Body, chassis, suspension, etc. components tend to be shared across weight class and are not dependent on engine displacement or fuel type. The engine and the internals do tend to cost more than your average Gasser but that tends to be negated by the longevity of those components vs their gas equivalents. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying gas engines are built like crap, its just a different machine.

Diesel engine tend to have thicker components to handle both the higher compression ratios and increased torque (would you run stock pistons,rods, and crank in a 350 SBC with 500 lb.-ft. Of torque?). A diesel engine also revs a lot lower, normally redlining below 4,000 RPM. You're looking at a redline of 7-8,000 on most gas engines (we're not talking big blocks here). The higher average RPM obviously creates more wear on components. So, yes, they cost more but they tend to be replaced less often. (Bear in mind this is in my opinion based off my experiences, other experience may vary.)

Now, as far as maintenance, it costs a little bit more. I wouldn't say triple in all cases though. Speaking of the two I know by heart, my 7.3L takes 16 quarts (I run a larger filter, factory capacity is 14) of diesel rated 15w-40, my Duramax takes 10 qts. Yes, oil for a diesel costs a little more but if you catch sales its not too bad. Filters for both run around $10. All in all, my last oil change on my Dmax cost me about $50 doing the work myself, that's the same price you'd pay at a shop for a 6-cylinder unless you catch a promo. Glow plugs vs. Spark plugs is almost a moot point anymore with current technology since spark plugs can easily last 100-150k as long as the engine doesn't experience problems that cause them to prematurely fail. However, I do love not having to worry about plugs, wires, distributors, rotors, coils, or whatever other ignition system its equipped with. My Power stroke needs glow plugs but still starts when it's cold as long as I plug her in and the Dmax needs 7 of 8 and I know it'll start down to 20* without being plugged in.

I'll try to post some links for Ford/6.0L info for you once I get home, House.

You da man

 

[RDKC]

So, we'll start with those links I promised and hope I'm not violating any rules (I don't think I am, and they're not competitors, but it's been a while since I read them so please delete if I do.)

Forums:

Powerstroke.org - I used to post around these boards but haven't in quite some time. Come to think of it, I don't even remember my username. Anyway, some real knowledgeable folks on here along with the normal mix of internet hooligans. They do a pretty good job keeping it in order though. (I guess I should say did, no clue to the current state of the site.)
Powerstroke Nation - Pretty much the same as above but was probably my most preferred Powerstroke forum.
Diesel Bombers - I never actually registered for this site (I don't think) but I've been a long term lurker. Definitely my favorite all around diesel forum. You can find info on practically any automotive diesel here.

NOTE ABOUT THE FORUMS: Keep in mind these are not professional sites. They're not extremely vulgar or always NSFW, but it wouldn't hurt to be wary of who is around while you're browsing. These are enthusiasts and mechanics and our version of professionalism seems to vary from a lot of fields.

If you want general knowledge about the engines and/or trucks, I find Wikipedia to be pretty useful under most circumstances. I tend to choose forums (which tend to be all over Google search results) over dedicated information sites most of the time.

Site to avoid:

I won't link to the site because I hate the site that much and do not want to mislead anyone or even give him one more page view. Please avoid Powerstrokehelp.com and all of his YouTube videos. He has some good ones, but for the most part the guy is a clown.

I can try to help you with any questions you have but that's most of the information I can think of off the top of my head that may be useful. However, I have one huge recommendation (or two) when buying a diesel that, of course, will be long-winded because that's how I roll.

I know you have your budget, and that's great when buying anything. First, explore just a little outside of your budget. From my car/truck buying experience, diesels tend to be easier to negotiate prices. They don't seem to sell as quickly (in most places) which makes them more negotiable on the price. At a lot of dealerships the salesmen/women don't seem to be as knowledgeable in the diesels and that can lead to awesome deals. I paid less than book value for my wife's old 2005 that had a 6" lift, 35" tires on 20" rims, a 4" exhaust, a tuner, a $400 intake, and few other odds-and-ends mostly because the salesmen had no clue what he was looking at. (It also probably helped that I am a horrible negotiator, it's my money, if you don't make me happy you won't get it.) Which leads me to my next point, study. Have a pretty good idea what you're looking at (both factory and aftermarket) and it may help you score a better deal. Just for a reference point, I purchased that 2005 for $5000 less than they were asking, my 2004 for $3,000 less (not as good but they already had it listed for way less than value) and my current 2005 for less than trade-in value with some aftermarket additions, new tires, and some other repairs. I had to deal with/fix some things but I made sure I pointed them out while negotiating to help with the price. I didn't negotiate the price on the Ford, but I had some horrible credit and I bought it from family. I'm not trying to boast, just trying to show my point that, as long as tactfully handled, knowing more than the salesmen/women can go a long way.

As I've said before, diesels are a different machine than a gas engine. I know you're looking at the '03-'07 Fords and I know you have your budget. Find some others that you like the looks of that are in, or close, to your budget and take them for a spin. A Duramax drives way differently than a Cummins which is also different from a Powerstroke. They're not like gassers where most people can't tell the difference between a 5.4L Triton or a 5.3L Vortec from a quick spin.

If any of this sounds condescending or makes you think that I find you a fool I apologize. That's not the intent, just trying to help you out in an area I've seen a lot of people struggle.

Also, find a good diesel shop in your area and take it in if you're serious about the truck. Most places will do it for around 1 labor hour and it could save you a fortune. I would definitely say this is even more important than when buying a gas vehicle. A good diesel tech is a lot harder to come by so the dealer may not even know if something is really wrong with it.

Why do you run a larger filter on the Powerstroke? Thanks

Figured I'd give it a shot. I normally change the oil in the Stroke between 5,000-10,000 depending on driving conditions. The larger filter gives me two more quarts to dissipate contaminants and a lot more filter media to help last the distance. Honestly, it probably does more for my head than for the vehicle and it probably isn't worth the $20-$30 more expensive filter. It also looks cool when you look under the truck.

 

[House of Wax]

Great stuff man. Oddly enough I had already created accounts on those two forums you recommended and have been doing some reading. Looks to be a great source of info. Thanks for the heads up on powerstrokehelp

Unfortunately I haven't found squat in my area in my price range. Seems like with my limited budget I'm gonna have to be willing to travel. My next step is to start compiling a list of things to inspect and look for when checking out a truck. From what I've been reading it looks like if I pick up a scangauge and hook it up while doing a pretty extensive test drive there's a lot i can learn about the truck

I'm still kinda on the fence about it all. I definitely miss my truck (impossible to beat the convenience and utility of a pickup, plus I like trucks as a DD), but then I get in my GTO and I think ehhhh, maybe not lol. Plus there's dealing with selling my car and the process of dealing with car salesmen, and that sounds about as fun as smashing my toes with a hammer.

Thanks again for your insight. It's greatly appreciated

 

[House of Wax]

Any particular reason you preferred Nation over .org?

 

[RDKC]

Unfortunately I haven't found squat in my area in my price range. Seems like with my limited budget I'm gonna have to be willing to travel. My next step is to start compiling a list of things to inspect and look for when checking out a truck. From what I've been reading it looks like if I pick up a scangauge and hook it up while doing a pretty extensive test drive there's a lot i can learn about the truck

I'm still kinda on the fence about it all. I definitely miss my truck (impossible to beat the convenience and utility of a pickup, plus I like trucks as a DD), but then I get in my GTO and I think ehhhh, maybe not lol. Plus there's dealing with selling my car and the process of dealing with car salesmen, and that sounds about as fun as smashing my toes with a hammer.

Thanks again for your insight. It's greatly appreciated

Could always take the approach I intended before I found my new (to me) truck. I kept the old, paid for Ford and bought a little Honda for most of my driving. I definitely miss having a smaller car/SUV to drive to/from work, around town, etc. Allowed me the more comfortable car but I still had the truck if I wanted it. Costs a little more for taxes and insurance but, it's 19 years old so it's really not that much.

Any particular reason you preferred Nation over .org?

Honestly, not really. Just tended to gravitate towards Nation. May be because it was the first one I joined, might be because I had a few friends that recommended me to it. If it was for another reason, I can't remember.