Need advice for 2013 Porsche Cayenne and 2014 Land Rover (leather interiors)

Don

Don

Darth Camaro 12/27/15
Hey all, before I get into the details, I know, I underbid the jobs so go ahead :bonk:

I was contacted by PM by a member who originally asked for a 'basic' detail on a 2013 Porsche Cayenne with tan leather interior. I told him that my 'basic' was Exterior: wash, polish, seal, tires dressed and Interior: vacuum, wipe down of surfaces and windows in/out. I also advised him that I don't shampoo or steam clean carpets or upholstery. I told him that this would be an all day job and quoted him $300-$350. I also made it clear that if the car started not playing well, it could go to $375 per car.

He said that he didn't realize that a detail would take that long and asked how many times I would be "buffing" the car. I explained that it didn't work that way. That *technically* I would be buffing the car twice, once for polish, once for the sealant, but since I don't count sealant application as "buffing," then really I would only be buffing his car once, but that that was a misleading statement. I said I don't just go once around the car and call it quits. I told him that I go panel (or section) by panel, correcting that part as needed, THEN moving on to the next panel/section until the whole car has been "buffed out" and that each panel might be buffed once or it could be buffed 30 times, depending on how well it plays with the polish. After that, I would apply the sealant.

Then he asked if we could split up the interior and exteriors, do the interiors one day and the exteriors another and how much just an interior would be. ASSUMING (I know.. . :unsure:) that since the cars are only 1 and 2 years old, they shouldn't be too bad, I told him $90 for just the interiors: vacuum, light leather cleaning, wipe down and protect plastic and vinyl and interior windows (sight unseen, that the price could go up if the leather didn't cooperate).

It's been a long time since I had to clean a leather interior and I used to use Meguiar's Rich Aloe Leather Cleaner (not the cleaner/conditioner), but I don't see it anymore, not even on the Meguiar's website.

So, what would you use if you were going in blind on a leather job for cleaning/conditioning? I've already bookmarked Leather Masters, is there anything else I might use that I could count on should the leather prove to be badly soiled?

I know, I bit off more than I can chew, go ahead and :kick: but help me anyway please.
 
OK, I'm going to break this down a bit.

1) cleaning leather. myself, having done this my entire life, and knowing that we clean probably somewhere around 800+ leather interiors each year, no joke, I will tell you that we do a 2 step process when the customer chooses to pay for the conditioning as well, as many of them don't want to pay just a few dollars more for it, basically just to cover the cost of us buying the products and not so much making a profit on it. surprisingly, when we say "here is our full interior price, and that is for cleaning the leather only, if you want them conditioned it will be $10-20 more" or something close to that, often times people say they don't care about the conditioning, or are simply cheap. keep in mind a lot of this work is done in a small, lower-income sort of area, so we do things a bit different to adjust for that. no problem, because of course the cost of living is much lower as well. now to clean the leather, we use a well diluted APC and a boars hair brush. it gets leather VERY clean, much cleaner than the all-in-one leather cleaner/conditioner products can. that is the way I would recommend doing it. not just spraying a cleaner on and wiping off, but actually using a soft brush to get way down in the pores and perforations of the material, you WILL notice a difference. and we use warm water, which not only cleans better, but also opens the pores of the leather which will make the conditioner do a much better job and last longer.

2) when it comes to the services you offer, it is a bit odd that you don't do any real deep cleaning of the interior, just basically spraying cleaner on the seats and plastic and wiping off, yet you charge $90 for that. that's incredible and I could be a millionaire in a couple years if I could get that kind of money for about 1 hour of work on a vehicle that size. I understand you don't do this everyday, so it probably seems like a lot more work than it does for someone who does do this everyday, therefore, you charge more. I get that. I don't agree with it, but I get it. not sure what you mean when speak of leather "not cooperating". I mean, I see what you mean, but not when it comes to leather on a Porsche. there is nothing unusual about it. now when it comes to the paint on a vehicle, that is certainly where you can talk to the client about possibly having to charge more if you aren't getting the correction you desire, and will have to spend more time, effort, and materials on it, assuming its not because of user error, but because the products just aren't working well enough (and assuming you are using the right products, pads, tool, and have the experience to combine all those things for the desired end result in a timely manner). but then again, when it comes to a Porsche, you should no problem cleaning or correcting anything on it. if someone asked me "thinking in terms of the entire vehicle, what is the most user-friendly vehicle to work on", no question, its a Porsche. the paint is extremely soft (good thing for us), and the carpet and leather are very cleaning-friendly (also good for us).

3) I assume you live near Cleveland (good luck starting tonight by the way, should be a hell of a series). honestly, the price you are charging seems way high to me. I live near Indy, and even the very best detail shops around here who do higher end vehicles in an expensive suburb would charge about $200-225 to do what you are doing, and about 80% of that cost would be the result of doing a 2 step on the exterior, and certainly not the super quick interior job you described. matter of fact, if you brought it to us, we would do it for about $225 and that would include shampooing carpet and deep cleaning the leather, not spray on - wipe off. but again, I understand that you don't do this every day, and you cant compare one area of the country to another. no doubt, you will get some guys who live in an area like southern California or NYC or Chicago who will think you actually UNDER charged this client, but then again, the cost of living is so much higher there that it all evens out, basically. I spend my fair share of time traveling the country so I certainly know how much things change when it comes to the costs of goods and services from one area to the next.

end of the day, get what you can get at the time, and who cares if you over charge or under charge. if you are satisfied with the price, and the client is satisfied with the work, its all good.
 
MooreImpressive said:
OK, I'm going to break this down a bit.

1) cleaning leather. myself, having done this my entire life, and knowing that we clean probably somewhere around 800+ leather interiors each year, no joke, I will tell you that we do a 2 step process when the customer chooses to pay for the conditioning as well, as many of them don't want to pay just a few dollars more for it, basically just to cover the cost of us buying the products and not so much making a profit on it. surprisingly, when we say "here is our full interior price, and that is for cleaning the leather only, if you want them conditioned it will be $10-20 more" or something close to that, often times people say they don't care about the conditioning, or are simply cheap. keep in mind a lot of this work is done in a small, lower-income sort of area, so we do things a bit different to adjust for that. no problem, because of course the cost of living is much lower as well. now to clean the leather, we use a well diluted APC and a boars hair brush. it gets leather VERY clean, much cleaner than the all-in-one leather cleaner/conditioner products can. that is the way I would recommend doing it. not just spraying a cleaner on and wiping off, but actually using a soft brush to get way down in the pores and perforations of the material, you WILL notice a difference. and we use warm water, which not only cleans better, but also opens the pores of the leather which will make the conditioner do a much better job and last longer.
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I agree 100%

2) when it comes to the services you offer, it is a bit odd that you don't do any real deep cleaning of the interior, just basically spraying cleaner on the seats and plastic and wiping off, yet you charge $90 for that. that's incredible and I could be a millionaire in a couple years if I could get that kind of money for about 1 hour of work on a vehicle that size. I understand you don't do this everyday, so it probably seems like a lot more work than it does for someone who does do this everyday, therefore, you charge more. I get that. I don't agree with it, but I get it. not sure what you mean when speak of leather "not cooperating". I mean, I see what you mean, but not when it comes to leather on a Porsche. there is nothing unusual about it. now when it comes to the paint on a vehicle, that is certainly where you can talk to the client about possibly having to charge more if you aren't getting the correction you desire, and will have to spend more time, effort, and materials on it, assuming its not because of user error, but because the products just aren't working well enough (and assuming you are using the right products, pads, tool, and have the experience to combine all those things for the desired end result in a timely manner). but then again, when it comes to a Porsche, you should no problem cleaning or correcting anything on it. if someone asked me "thinking in terms of the entire vehicle, what is the most user-friendly vehicle to work on", no question, its a Porsche. the paint is extremely soft (good thing for us), and the carpet and leather are very cleaning-friendly (also good for us).
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If your charging hourly your losing MAJOR profit, charge by skill an attention not by hour. Most shops charge 100 for an interior an that doesn't include steam. I charge an addition fee for steam just like leatherique. It's a specialty item. You can get things VERY clean with simple hand tools, right techniques and proper chemicals + attention to detail (An yes I mean gun brushes in the shifter gate attention). Charging JUST hourly for a service, is pretty much useless in the high end detailing world, you must factor in what your skill is worth, how expensive is the product your using + how effective it is. Hourly to cover overhead an bills + profit doesn't work as well as calculating in actors like these.

3) I assume you live near Cleveland (good luck starting tonight by the way, should be a hell of a series). honestly, the price you are charging seems way high to me. I live near Indy, and even the very best detail shops around here who do higher end vehicles in an expensive suburb would charge about $200-225 to do what you are doing, and about 80% of that cost would be the result of doing a 2 step on the exterior, and certainly not the super quick interior job you described. matter of fact, if you brought it to us, we would do it for about $225 and that would include shampooing carpet and deep cleaning the leather, not spray on - wipe off. but again, I understand that you don't do this every day, and you cant compare one area of the country to another. no doubt, you will get some guys who live in an area like southern California or NYC or Chicago who will think you actually UNDER charged this client, but then again, the cost of living is so much higher there that it all evens out, basically. I spend my fair share of time traveling the country so I certainly know how much things change when it comes to the costs of goods and services from one area to the next.
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Why are you telling him to charge less then 1/4 of the cost it would be here in NY? I'm sorry but NO level of income differentiation is worth 1/4 of the cost. That's just insane....

I charge 350 for a basic 1 stepper = wash, clay, wheels, basic interior, AIO polish, Sealant an dressings. To say 225 for a 2 stepper is ALOT is a JOKE!!! A proper two step on a vehicle of the cayenne's size should take a minimum of 14 hours (That's pro level, using the most badass tools). I would charge ATLEAST 600 if not more an SUV an a 2 stepper. A shop around me would charge a min of 1000+ EASY. DO NOT SELL YOUR SELF SHORT. 375 is more then a bargain, you charge what you feel your worth. I blow most shops out the water, I'm one on one, do this in my spare time and KNOW I'm better then even employee's at most pro level detail shops. KNOW YOUR WORTH!

If you educate your customers with a passion an explain why your process is better, an how much you care about the result, customers will see that and choose you over the competition. I always go into detail about everything from A-Z. I explain before we meet to set aside time to talk when you come for the evaluation. You should want people to be excited about coming to you, if you can do that you can charge more.
 
MooreImpressive said:
OK, I'm going to break this down a bit.

1) ... now to clean the leather, we use a well diluted APC and a boars hair brush. it gets leather VERY clean, much cleaner than the all-in-one leather cleaner/conditioner products can. that is the way I would recommend doing it. not just spraying a cleaner on and wiping off, but actually using a soft brush to get way down in the pores and perforations of the material, you WILL notice a difference. and we use warm water, which not only cleans better, but also opens the pores of the leather which will make the conditioner do a much better job and last longer.


2) when it comes to the services you offer, it is a bit odd that you don't do any real deep cleaning of the interior, just basically spraying cleaner on the seats and plastic and wiping off, yet you charge $90 for that. that's incredible and I could be a millionaire in a couple years if I could get that kind of money for about 1 hour of work on a vehicle that size. I understand you don't do this everyday, so it probably seems like a lot more work than it does for someone who does do this everyday, therefore, you charge more. I get that. I don't agree with it, but I get it. not sure what you mean when speak of leather "not cooperating". I mean, I see what you mean, but not when it comes to leather on a Porsche. there is nothing unusual about it.

The entire reason for this post was to find out HOW to deep clean the leather, I don't want to just wipe and go. I did my Sister in Law's Buick some years ago and the tan leather was almost black from age and use. Using Meguiar's Aloe Leather Cleaner and a medium-rough scrubbing pad & brush, I got the leather looking like new, but it was A LOT of work and it took me most of a day to do the front and rear seats of the car, and I'm assuming the worst and expecting to run into seats like that on this detail ... just trying to be prepared. I'm looking for something that is more effective than that, so I can do a proper job without it taking me all day I do plan on conditioning the leather. I also plan on cleaning and protecting the plastic and vinyl using the appropriate chemicals and scrubbing as needed. I gave an estimate of it taking me up to three hours to complete the interior of the SUV ... doing it properly and completely. Plus if it doesn't take me three hours do complete the interior, the price will go down. I don't do carpets/fabric upholstery simply because I don't have the equipment to do it right.


now when it comes to the paint on a vehicle, that is certainly where you can talk to the client about possibly having to charge more if you aren't getting the correction you desire, and will have to spend more time, effort, and materials on it, assuming its not because of user error, but because the products just aren't working well enough (and assuming you are using the right products, pads, tool, and have the experience to combine all those things for the desired end result in a timely manner). but then again, when it comes to a Porsche, you should no problem cleaning or correcting anything on it. if someone asked me "thinking in terms of the entire vehicle, what is the most user-friendly vehicle to work on", no question, its a Porsche. the paint is extremely soft (good thing for us), and the carpet and leather are very cleaning-friendly (also good for us).

I told him that a 2-step compounding or polishing + sealing might not end up being 'perfect,' but I'm still going to strive for that, I mean all I do to my own car is a two-step and I work the polish until the paint is perfect or as close as I can get it, usually an all day affair. I'm glad you said Porsche paint is soft and easily workable, that will also help keep his cost down. I quoted him $300 to start, only increasing that if the paint turned out to be really hard and it took a lot of extra work to get it to my level of satisfaction which is pretty high.

3) I assume you live near Cleveland (good luck starting tonight by the way, should be a hell of a series). honestly, the price you are charging seems way high to me. I live near Indy, and even the very best detail shops around here who do higher end vehicles in an expensive suburb would charge about $200-225 to do what you are doing, and about 80% of that cost would be the result of doing a 2 step on the exterior, and certainly not the super quick interior job you described. matter of fact, if you brought it to us, we would do it for about $225 and that would include shampooing carpet and deep cleaning the leather, not spray on - wipe off. but again, I understand that you don't do this every day, and you cant compare one area of the country to another. no doubt, you will get some guys who live in an area like southern California or NYC or Chicago who will think you actually UNDER charged this client, but then again, the cost of living is so much higher there that it all evens out, basically. I spend my fair share of time traveling the country so I certainly know how much things change when it comes to the costs of goods and services from one area to the next.

I actually live in a suburb of Akron, and the client lives in a suburb south of Cleveland. The shop where I initially picked up the basics is in Akron and for an exterior with an interior vacuum, wipe down and windows, they charge 75 percent more than I do to start, and they are swamped with steady business, although they insists it takes them 5 steps to do what I can do in 2 or 3. Actually this is my first detail that doesn't involve a family member or a friend and I don't have any way to measure the right pricing scale for what I do, other than my former boss' shop and what I see what the various detailers on the forums charge for various services and try to go a bit lower than that since I'm not a "professional."

end of the day, get what you can get at the time, and who cares if you over charge or under charge. if you are satisfied with the price, and the client is satisfied with the work, its all good.
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Even though I try to under charge and over deliver, I still worry that I'm overcharging because to me, a large part of this isn't "work," this is a hobby and for the most part a form of stress relief. I always worry that what I do isn't good enough to suit the person I'm doing the car for and I'm charging too much, I'm not trying to make enemies, I'm just trying to enjoy myself and make a little money on the side but at the same time, I don't want to short myself because in reality it is a lot of work detailing a full car by yourself.
 
Don I use Optimum Power Clean at 3:1 on leather and other interior surfaces. It does require some massaging with a boars hair brush as others have stated. If the seats are really dirty it may take 2 or 3 applications to get them completely clean but the OPC really does do a good job.
 
I know its too late to order it but if you want to try something I have used for over a Decade on all types of leather, it would be Zaino Leather Cleaner..
Its a clear liquid that you spray on the area and clean with a little leather cleaning brush..

I have a couple of Swissvax leather cleaning brushes that work really well and dont leave anything behind like some boars head bristle brushes do..

This Zaino Leather Cleaner really gets any leather really clean quickly, wipes off and you are now ready to apply a conditioner of your choice or move on..
This product will leave the leather feeling much better than when you started.
It is really good on leather steering wheel covers, cleans off an amazing amount of dirt, and leaves the leather cover feeling slightly "grippy" which is very nice..

If you choose to try their Leather Conditioner, it is also very good, and leaves a slight "leather smell" that goes away in a couple of days..

I have also had great success with Einszett (1-Z) leather cleaner and conditioner after using the Zaino Leather Cleaner spray..

Nothing made by Meguiars has ever touched any of the leather interiors I have ever done, and the number is in the high hundreds..

There is another leather cleaner/conditioner - Spinneybeck - I use often that comes out of the NY area, sold by the largest importer/seller of leather hides in the world..
It is a basically neutral product in smell, goes on easily and disappears leaving a nice smooth, conditioned, surface..

I contacted these people about 16 years ago, when I heard they made the hides for my new BMW and I wanted to know what they recommended for their care.
They told me this product was what they used on their hides after the tanning process..

I have been using this product very successfully for all of those 16 years as well..

The rage back then was that nasty Lexol product that I saw personally ruin a few people's interiors, because they used too much and it caused the hides to get sticky and it would not come off..
Good luck !
Dan F
 
exactly what I said about location. I would have bet my left leg that, even though I talked about the difference in price from 1 location to the next, someone would still have to chime in with examples. I even mentioned the very state that you live in, NY. its pretty simple.....come to where I live and quote people those prices and you will get laughed at every time, have no clients, and make no money. the very best, incredibly passionate, extremely experienced, and very busy detail shops around here charge about $225 for what OP said he was going to do, a 2 step exterior and quick interior. if you live in Wyoming, that price is probably below $200, and if you live in Palm Beach, that price is probably more than $600. why? because a $75,000 home where I live would easily sell for $400,000+ in a very average neighborhood in southern California. I lived there for a while, so I know. it makes no sense to try to tell me my prices are too high or low, because you have no idea what it costs to live here, and own property here. where you live, you may drive around town on streets filled with Porsches and Benzes, while I drive around on streets filled with Honda Civics and Chevy Cavaliers. try getting $300+ to detail a Cavalier around here, I dare you. this is actually a very simple idea that applies to much more than Auto Detailing. this topic has been beat to death. Some people have been around the country and understand this well, some people sort of have a feel for it, and others will never be convinced of it no matter how long you try to explain it.

end of the day, like I said, get as much as you can get from whoever you can get it from, as long as they are satisfied, and you are too.
 
Stokdgs said:
I know its too late to order it but if you want to try something I have used for over a Decade on all types of leather, it would be Zaino Leather Cleaner..
Its a clear liquid that you spray on the area and clean with a little leather cleaning brush..

I have a couple of Swissvax leather cleaning brushes that work really well and dont leave anything behind like some boars head bristle brushes do..

This Zaino Leather Cleaner really gets any leather really clean quickly, wipes off and you are now ready to apply a conditioner of your choice or move on..
This product will leave the leather feeling much better than when you started.
It is really good on leather steering wheel covers, cleans off an amazing amount of dirt, and leaves the leather cover feeling slightly "grippy" which is very nice..

If you choose to try their Leather Conditioner, it is also very good, and leaves a slight "leather smell" that goes away in a couple of days..

I have also had great success with Einszett (1-Z) leather cleaner and conditioner after using the Zaino Leather Cleaner spray..

Nothing made by Meguiars has ever touched any of the leather interiors I have ever done, and the number is in the high hundreds..

There is another leather cleaner/conditioner I use often that comes out of the NY area, sold by the largest importer/seller of leather hides in the world..
It is a basically neutral product in smell, goes on easily and disappears leaving a nice smooth, conditioned, surface..
I contacted these people about 16 years ago, when I heard they made the hides for my new BMW and I wanted to know what they recommended for their care.
The rage back then was that nasty Lexol product that I saw personally ruin a few people's interiors, because they used too much and it caused the hides to get sticky and it would not come off..
Cant think of the name right now, but will research and get back to you asap.

Good luck !
Dan F
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It's not too late for anything, I haven't even arranged to go out and look over the cars to see exactly what I'm going to need. I'm just planning ahead for the seats to be severe, that way if they are, I'm prepared and if they're not it will be cheaper for him and easier (and more fun) for me. That's why I'm looking now for cleaners that can handle severe staining
 
Don,

Glad its not too late..

For severe staining, check out Spinneybeck or perhaps call them..
They used to make a kit that came in a box that included the conditioner/cleaner, and a couple of smaller bottles of specialized cleaners for ink from pens, for example..

Another way I clean really dirty, nasty leather sometimes, is to spray it with the Zaino cleaner, scrub it in, and then place my big steamer triangular brush with a white towel covering the bristles, over the brushed areas, steam through the towel, not much rubbing is needed, and its amazing how much muck wicks up from this onto the white towel...
The leather is really clean now and looks and feels fabulous..
Good luck with your research,
Dan F
 
Stokdgs said:
Don,

Glad its not too late..

For severe staining, check out Spinneybeck or perhaps call them..
They used to make a kit that came in a box that included the conditioner/cleaner, and a couple of smaller bottles of specialized cleaners for ink from pens, for example..

Another way I clean really dirty, nasty leather sometimes, is to spray it with the Zaino cleaner, scrub it in, and then place my big steamer triangular brush with a white towel covering the bristles, over the brushed areas, steam through the towel, not much rubbing is needed, and its amazing how much muck wicks up from this onto the white towel...
The leather is really clean now and looks and feels fabulous..
Good luck with your research,
Dan F
Click to expand...

I wish I had a steamer :(
 
You don't need a steamer to do excellent work, I have done it for 16 years.
jus some elbow grease. Meguiars apc will work just fine without causing any problems. 10:1 works very well on even stubborn spots. I work on some of the most valuable cars in the world and have never had a problem with Meguiars, I follow that with Sonax leather foam.
hope that helps. As far as pricing, that is a whole other discussion that could go. On for days!
 
Don said:
I wish I had a steamer :(
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They are overrated, an take forever to heat up. I use very rarely, I think it gets more house use then detail.

On a side note, if anyone who is reputable and has a a certain level of credibility is interested, I've gone halfs and quarters with people on bulk leatherique. A 32 of Leatherique Rej oil is only 22 with a bulk order from ago. I'm surprised no one has done this in the past.
 
Don,
You will be fine !

I just thought of something that may or may not help -

The Porsche Cayenne's I have Detailed have all had very "tough/hard" leather..
One that had been hauling teen baseball players around for years had a lot of dirt embedded in the beautiful dove gray, and it was harder to remove than the glove soft Range Rovers leather I have done in the past..
Good luck !
Dan F
 
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