Attention: Detailers that only offer Full Corrections.....

[David Fermani]

Bob – I’m glad that you took the time to reply to this thread. Your input is very well received in more ways than one and it’s good to see you participating outside the normal sections you’re usually more active in. Sorry that you feel hostile and that I’m singling you out, but the truth is that I’m not. Although your replies assume otherwise, I`ve never accused you of saying that your shop only does Full Corrections as you’ve posted several threads portraying quite the opposite? :noidea:For example:



http://www.autopia.org/forum/pro-det...ce-detail.html



http://www.autopia.org/forum/pro-det...ce-detail.html



http://www.autopia.org/forum/pro-det...orrection.html



http://www.autopia.org/forum/pro-det...orrection.html



http://www.autopia.org/forum/pro-det...orrection.html



These show me that you are going above and beyond the realm of just paint correction as I see a multitude of your additional services. You have every right to not agree with my opinion and share yours as I think that agreeing to disagree can be a healthy stance at times. That’s what forums are for and what makes them a great avenue for learning. I applaud you for being a successful detailer who many respect. If you’re business model is working for you and you are satisfied with the fruit it has beared then more power to you. Your strong willed work ethic that you employ is very unique and I got it that you are doing what best serves your client’s and area’s needs as well as your own. Now back to the thread……

I think this post made its intended point.



To get people thinking.

From the overwhelming positive responses this thread has received, I’d say that’s exactly what has occurred and people got my message at face value. Other than what a few others may be feeling, I’ll again reinforce that this was not intended to single any one person or group out, but I realized some who tend to think differently may feel otherwise. I totally understand that this is your opinion and you have every right to share your side as long as it’s delivered in a useful way which has been relayed for the most part. Regardless of what your business model is based on, I’ll stick to my belief that a good business person is one who can grow its business to its maximum potential. Whether you’re content with the level of volume/income/satisfaction your business produces for you is ultimately your choice. It makes no difference to me and doesn’t affect my life in any way, shape of form. If anything this thread will hopefully help others who are more open to alternative ways of thinking. If this discussion can open 1 person’s eyes to what I’m saying and help them see things differently than I’m happy that I could have helped.



I can’t help to notice people in my day to day life that I label as “good enoughers� who are very talented and have an overabundance of work knocking on their doors but fail to grow with their business to meet their customer’s demands. It’s beyond me why they don’t move forward making every possible attempt at growing their business to higher levels/standards. For example I service a high end body shop that is constantly at least 2 weeks backed up with their cycle times. It’s a complete nightmare trying to get an ETC out of them. Even though they pride themselves on doing above average work, they fail at pacifying both the insurance companies and clients demands for this very important facet of the service equation. I constantly get feedback from their customers and fellow Appraisers wondering why they don’t do what is necessary to tackle this demand. But because of their inability to see the light they wallow within their good enough mentality going one day at a time.



As for detailing aspect, I have a hard time believing that many(not every) business that chooses to only cater themselves to full on corrections and who have copious amounts of work cannot reach out to better servicing their client’s obvious needs. Anything other than this I feel is more of an exception than the rule. What I mean by this is offering maintenance touch up corrections, interior and engine details as well as wash & waxes. Not only is there an incredible amount of income potential with this simple concept, but it also creates the utmost positive integrity in regards to caring for a client’s vehicle. This extra service isn’t detail rocket science and I strongly feel that it can be correctly and effectively trained to the right people with the appropriately skilled leadership in place. Providing this shows that you are conscious about more that just the initial service, but actually preserving not only their valuable finish, but their entire vehicle. But, to consciously keep re-leveling one’s car just to throw it out to the wolves to mar it up immediately after to me is pointless and is one of the premises of this thread. If a customer is willing to spend many hundreds or even thousands correcting their finish to this high level, they tend to parallel this same integrity for maintaining it. If a detailer can take the time to coach their clients on the proper way to care for their car in the 1st place, then their return will only be for a light correction and spot cleaning. Even better, if this person/shop can offer to take on this additional service, than the worst thing that could happen is it would be creating a separate revenue stream for success. For example anyone willing to spend this amount of money making their vehicle look this way may not have a problem regularly spending $200-300 or more for a comprehensive wash, wax & spiff. I don’t see how one couldn’t schedule at least 5 of these in 1 day. This in turn would create at least $1000 in a day’s revenue flow. So, unless you’re able to produce more than this amount regularly (daily), then I don’t really see how this is a bad idea?

[autoconcierge]

$700-800 for multiple days.................... now who is leaving money on the table?? $75 per hour x 8 = 600 x 2 = $1,200 where most "Full correction jobs really take 20 hours plus in reality.............at least in my shop. So let`s review 75.00 per hour x 20 = $1,500.00 mixed in with occasional $150-450 dollar jobs have me doing just fine, but of course if you have MUCH lower overhead then the smaller jobs are going to fit the bill.



Btw full corrections in my shop also include "Full Interior correction" as well thus the time spent factor.Like most pro automotive business models I charge as a time spent basis, just as all mechanical jobs are billed sans the parts and only labor, smaller jobs are considered "Canned jobs" as they are known in the automotive industry where you factor in a pre set time model in the estimate, it is also known as "Menu pricing" which is fine as long as a 30-0% gross profit margin is maintained which is different than mark up from cost and a factor is used.



If one is completing jobs in just a "Few hours" as in let`s say 3.5-4.0 hours your average is roughly $114.00 per and I know that "Top quality" work is not being completed by ANYone`s standards.

Dave, I would think someone who cleans the interior of a car with a "Toothbrush" would be so detail orientated that they would have seen the highlighted portion above before they cut n pasted the very jobs that sentence describes.......





I find it funny that someone who is lecturing about a body shop not being able to keep up with demand.......did you or did you not have multiple employees in your shop you sold? me thinks if you were here in California with that biz model the workman`s comp and high cost of doing business would have you gone in a jiffy, as it is VERY hard to get anyone to do something properly much less even half a** level of work.





Since you have the template, why don`t you sh**can the insurance gig and build out a 2,500-5,000 sq/ft shop.......with all the equipment and employees to let`s say do 20-30 low level jobs a day? as there is "Gold in dem hills" with this kind of business model.





Almost every shop that is set up this way is filled with un-documented workers who have low pay and no benefits, and thus the work produced reflects this. In case you are wondering I HAVE built out a big operation, now I will admit I had a wealthy investor(who fought me tooth n nail btw) but the following pics tell the story Dave because for me I want the best of the best if I can do it as this makes me fufilled and content, my bone to pick with you is well documented so we can go back in forth(although when I retort it get`s clipped and your posts stay up.........).





A shop my style, which works for me and is not going to be everyone`s "Cup of tea"....



Detail bays











My old office







One of two alignment racks







Shop floor











Drill press/brake lathe/welding station







Showroom











Product displays















So in conclusion, you do your thing Dave and I will continue to chase after "Tightness"

[David Fermani]

Dave, I would think someone who cleans the interior of a car with a "Toothbrush" would be so detail orientated that they would have seen the highlighted portion above before they cut n pasted the very jobs that sentence describes.......

Ok, gotcha there. I failed the white glove micro inspection on this one. :whistle:

I find it funny that someone who is lecturing about a body shop not being able to keep up with demand.......did you or did you not have multiple employees in your shop you sold?

Yes Bob, that’s not a secret? I ultimately utilized a staff of anywhere between 6-8 people at any 1 given time. Sometimes more when needed. The object was to always be prepared for what your clients were willing to send. And since we’re on this subject, I actually was able to retain the 1st 3 people I hired the day my shop opened up until the day I sold it. 1 of them is still there to this day! I’d say that’s very good according to industry measurements.

me thinks if you were here in California with that biz model the workman`s comp and high cost of doing business would have you gone in a jiffy, as it is VERY hard to get anyone to do something properly much less even half a** level of work.

You’re probably right Bob. And in retrospect I feel your business model would starve if the territories were reversed. I never claimed to hold the key to every detailer’s success, but my type of model seems to do quite well for me and many others throughout the country.

Since you have the template, why don`t you sh**can the insurance gig and build out a 2,500-5,000 sq/ft shop.......with all the equipment and employees to let`s say do 20-30 low level jobs a day? as there is "Gold in dem hills" with this kind of business model.

After 10 years of owning the business I helped create several years prior, I became burned out with several aspects of the business. Dealers, people and the thought of being in my 50’s or 60’s with no other alternative to fall back on if I decided to then walk away. I`m not quite sure if I`d want to go back to that environment? We had also had our second child and I felt pigeon held as my wife left her career to become a stay at home Mom. So, I sold my business for a significant sum and moved on to other options as they became available. As for my insurance career, I don’t think I’ll ever want to step away from that as I feel the benefits and job security are second to none right now. And I could easily do this well into my late retirement years if I wanted to. I can’t say that about detailing though. It’s back breaking work as I’m sure you know and I can’t honestly say I’ve seen very many detailers working into their 50’s or 60’s.

Almost every shop that is set up this way is filled with un-documented workers who have low pay and no benefits, and thus the work produced reflects this.

Maybe in Cailfornia with the infestation of migrant workers, but not at my shop in Michigan. I paid my people extremely well (too well at times) and that’s most likely the largest factor in my success with them. The quality of work is a function of the person running the business as well as the client’s demand based on their needs. If I did low quality work I wouldn’t have been able to retain every one of the 15 dealers I serviced throughout my entire tenure. I noticed as the new owner revamped the business to his specs he quickly lost dealers and several good people. Again,this says something.

In case you are wondering I HAVE built out a big operation, now I will admit I had a wealthy investor(who fought me tooth n nail btw) but the following pics tell the story Dave because for me I want the best of the best if I can do it as this makes me fufilled and content, my bone to pick with you is well documented so we can go back in forth(although when I retort it get`s clipped and your posts stay up.........).



A shop my style, which works for me and is not going to be everyone`s "Cup of tea"....



Detail bays



My old office



One of two alignment racks



Shop floor



Drill press/brake lathe/welding station



Showroom



Product displays

Nice big shop, but it doesn’t scream detailing? I wouldn’t want to sit down and write out the checks to keep that place afloat. Seems more like a heavy specialty mechanical type atmosphere with a couple of detail bays. I didn’t see where the wash bay was? I’m not knocking it as it seems to be quite clean and well organized. I’d like to hear more about it if you’d like to share as the pics don’t really explain all that much about the business. Especially the detailing aspect of it. Were you the owner? Manager? What happened if you can discuss?

So in conclusion, you do your thing Dave and I will continue to chase after "Tightness"

May the power of the Tightness be with you! pture:

[autoconcierge]

Dave, you now need to get real........come on now you know that shop was not a detail shop but a high end specialty suspension and alignment shop with the ability to do extreme high end correction along with maintenance work.



I was the founding General Manager and I left because the owner wanted to run a cheapo "Tire r us" type of operation where the facility and techs were set up to work on the finest cars on the road.





Just by your statement it obvious you do not know what the equipment was/is or how to use it?, if so maybe you can tell me how to get a Ferrari Scuderia to go from a negative to positive scrub radius? or more high speed stability?? would you set in more caster or not? and where in the rear or front or both?. Maybe you can explain how to fix a tire pull?? is it due to road crown or other factors?? also maybe a tutorial on bump steer and how to optimize tire runout with match mounting in conjunction with axial and radial forces put on the tire and wheel assembly with a dual plane static and dynamic loadforce balance.





Dave I know what the numbers are, and understand "Economy of scale" as it pertains to a shop and I would love to know what the princely sum you sold the shop for because unless you have ten kids or something you should be rolling.........I mean "Monied up" and people who are in that category(such as my client base) are not on detailing forums 24/7.



I too am on great terms with all five of the original guys I hired @ Performance Art and speak with them on a daily basis, so that in and of itself does not tell me much.My whole problem with you is the way you have banged people, all the while claiming you help "The community" where as I do it behind the scenes where only myself and the person I talked with know what transpired with out a thread touting myself as a guru.





Have you ever seen me come up with a "Hack list" of detailers?, have you seen me attack by NAME my direct competition for the exception when that person pulled some shady poop?, or attack your "Business partners" competition?.





I am not perfect Dave, and I have told lies in my life and have done things I wish I had not, however I do have a self induced code of honor that I attempt to live by and when I see a guy being a internet bully and no one speaks up.............well I did and the results are self evident. You have pre-judged all three of us (former Gloss-it guys) Dave S, Richie and myself made up your mind and that was that, telling some people(yes it got back to me) I was a schill........well I do not have a link in my profile going to Zaino now do I?.





This will probably get clipped, I know this and have recieved a few pm`s that were not flattering about the drama, but my zero tolerance for "Shenanigans" causes this reply and I stand by it....like a man should to "Say what I mean, mean what I say".

[sacdetailing]

hey guys chill... none of you including me (am trying became a millionaires like we should...in business.. lol a real business man will always look further to expand... look at good example: Paul Dalton... hes the best businessman and detailer ever. i can tell you that many of here will compete with him in paint correction, but not many became like him... hes not just a good paint correction specialist that we heard from friends friend cousin. hope that helps. bye

[gigondaz]

:happy:Bob,



As a high-end detailer, I fully appreciate your views and sentiments.



Your pics have already implied a very important point....

It appears to be a high-end outlet doing high-end jobs to premium-priced cars.



When customers see nice cars being detailed in such an outlet, I CRINGE at the thought of these customers going for a closer look at W-I-P cars and finished cars, and seeing the results of a simple 1 or 2 stepper. I will never accept and tolerate this in my premises....you surely don`t see a Seiko (and it`s a good watch!) sold at outlets dealing in Patek Phillippes!zz:



High-end places should perform primarily high-end jobs.

That`s your business positioning, and for that, I applaud you:wavey



Such a high-end oriented premise will be expensive to rent or buy, relatively higher salaries for quality, experienced workers whom you must`ve spent some time in sourcing(!!), utilities bills, etc. Overheads will be relatively high. Surely you don`t wanna sell cheap hot-dogs in a posh restaurant that costs a bomb to rent montly!! ..and I love those roadside hot-dogs!



In such a high-end business model, you MUST single-mindedly focus on your core service which is High-End Detailing, because it is commensurate with your business`s image and positioning, and the huge amount of money you`ve invested.

================================================== ===



Years ago in an Asian country, there was a similar high-end vehicle tuning place owned by another forum`s participant, and it`s detailing services was sub-contracted/rented out to a 3rd party.



Instead of focusing on high-end jobs, they became greedy and started doing 1 and 2 steppers/high-volume jobs. This instantly attracted the "wrong" kinda cars/customers into the outlet, which "diluted" their high-end image. Undocumented/illegal immigrant workers started to work there, resulting in occasional fights, arguments and discipline-related matters.



The detailing section became dirty, run-down and un-professional. The outlet eventually closed.

================================================== =



Bob, I applaud you again for your tenacity and ethics.

Although high-end detailing might not be practical for everyone in this business, but as long as any detailer is CLEAR of his business direction, and is fully committed to it.....it`s GREAT!!!! zz:zz:

[imported_Detailing Technology]

I love business related posts on forums.



A no-so-great man once said to me, "The only thing money can`t buy is poverty".



The guys with the "high-end" only focus have a plan that works for them, as do the "low-end" guys. Thats the key, do what works for you.



To give this some perspective, lets change it up and call the "high-end" guys the "luxury goods" market.



Now think like a retail consumer. I`ll use common brands to keep this simple.



Issac Mizrahi

Martha Stewart

Vera Wang

Riedel



These people all started selling low-volume luxury-goods or services for premium prices out of premium stores. They created luxury brands.



Then the MBA`s got a hold of them and said, "Do you want make some money, or are you doing this for charity"?



Brand Creator - "But I work 2 days and make $1,000,000 from selling 4 items, why would I want to change"?



MBA - "How would you like to work those same 2 days and make $40,000,000 selling your name and brand"?



Brand Creator - wakes from slumber "Ok, lets do it"!!



And so a luxury-brand develops a high-volume product that has the power to make the masses feel powerful and part with their hard earned capital.



Absolutely nothing wrong with it if owning a massively profitable business is your goal. Im actually jealous I cant brand myself in a way that makes people want to spend their money.



We are talking about business revenue here right? Thats what the initial post read like. "Dont leave money on the table". Quality of work, image, and work ethic are completely different subjects. Even much more personal and emotional business, like the ones run by the famous Creflo Dollar and Joel Osteen, are in it for the cheddar.



Call me what you want, but I`ve never heard anyone say, "Oh, he`s a wealthy car detailer".



But I have heard more than a million times, "Oh, he`s a zillionaire car wash owner".

[brwill2005]

It absolutely makes sense to offer maintenance details, of high end cars, from the time they are new. If the maintenance is done bi-weekly or monthly by a qualified person, the car should never need "paint correction", with the exception of an accidental scratch. I offer a decent discount if a person agrees to at least monthly service for 6 months at a time. Many do bi-weekly. These cars stay virtually "new" looking, indefinitely. That is a major benefit for your customers, who really value the appearance of their cars.

[brwill2005]

We are talking about business revenue here right? Thats what the initial post read like. "Dont leave money on the table". Quality of work, image, and work ethic are completely different subjects. Even much more personal and emotional business, like the ones run by the famous Creflo Dollar and Joel Osteen, are in it for the cheddar.

Those attributes are part of your overall marketing strategy. Doing them well absolutely helps you achieve more sales, but most importantly profits. Opening a car wash takes boat loads of capital and requires a lengthy bureaucratic process because of the zoning and environmental impact issues. We are just talking about making a quality auto detailing business profitable, which is entirely possible.

[gigondaz]

It absolutely makes sense to offer maintenance details, of high end cars, from the time they are new. If the maintenance is done bi-weekly or monthly by a qualified person, the car should never need "paint correction", with the exception of an accidental scratch. I offer a decent discount if a person agrees to at least monthly service for 6 months at a time. Many do bi-weekly. These stars stay virtually "new" looking indefinitely. That is a major benefit for your customers, who really value the appearance of their cars.

Spot on!!!!

Before and after a massive detail, always remind customers about the maintenance.

This is where you can promote your maintenance package. These beautiful luxury cars will continue to regularly grace your premises, thereby indirectly helping to project that high-end image of your establishment (if you hv a shop).



Doing a high-end full correction detail is only the start.

Periodical maintenance is where the money comes in consistently over a period of time.



I am even requested by some owners to pick up their brand new luxury cars from the dealer, as though I`m the owner (!!!). The car will be driven back, and detailing starts immediately.

In my free time, I read the owner`s manual and when the owner collects his new expensive ride from me, I`ll brief him on all the functions of the dash controls etc. They love it.



It might sound silly to many, but it helps create a closer bond and increased trust amongst both parties. This is high-end area, and the big budget makes this worthwhile. Once the trust is there, and you establish yourself as a car enthusiast, that owner will recommend his high-end friends to you, and this starts a spiral effect. You just can`t lose.

[imported_Detailing Technology]

Thought I’d post these for fun.



Just so you know I’m not talking about the “new math� or some recently devised logistics and operations model being published by Wharton.





Steve Martin in The Jerk (Navin R. Johnson) - Working for the travelling circus as a “weight guesser�.



Navin R. Johnson: [bleakly] I`ve already given away eight pencils, two hoola dolls, and an ashtray, and I`ve only taken in fifteen dollars.



Frosty: Navin, you have taken in fifteen dollars and given away fifty cents worth of crap, which gives us a net profit of fourteen dollars and fifty cents.



Navin R. Johnson: Ah... It`s a profit deal. Takes the pressure off. Get your weight guessed right here! Only a buck! Actual live weight guessing! Take a chance and win some crap!





Another great line pertinent to discussing a revenue generating business model. It hits home as well.



Marie: I don`t care about losing all the money. It`s losing all the stuff.

[Junebug]

Great movie - I liked the part where he learned what his "special purpose" was for.

[imported_Detailing Technology]

As long as you are sleeping at night, go high-end, production, part-time, auction, do whatever works.





Good Will Hunting: An excellent exchange on the modern reality of nobility.



WILL

Why is it a cop-out? I don`t see

anythin` wrong with layin` brick,

that`s somebody`s home I`m buildin`.

Or fixin` somebody`s car, somebody`s

gonna get to work the next day `cause

of me. There`s honor in that.



SEAN

You`re right, Will. Any man who takes

a forty minute train ride so those

college kids can come in in the

morning and their floors will be

clean and their trash cans will be

empty is an honorable man.



SEAN

And when they get drunk and puke in

the sink, they don`t have to see it

the next morning because of you.

That`s real work, Will. And there is

honor in that. Which I`m sure is

why you took the job.





Matt Damon said it better than I could.

[sacdetailing]

Call me what you want, but I`ve never heard anyone say, "Oh, he`s a wealthy car detailer".



But I have heard more than a million times, "Oh, he`s a zillionaire car wash owner".

that`s so true...........

[justin30513]

Funny thing. I have seen owners of high volume shops and they drive in high end cars. Then you have high end detailers that only work on high cars but drive low end rides.



Hmmmm.....what`s up with this????