Coats on leather porous or not ?

[Jaguarfan]

Hello all!

I have 3 cars with 3 different types of leather and I have been treating all of them in a similar way:

Car 1-is a 1974 Jaguar E type convertible recently refinished in Connolly Vaumol Leather (biscuit). This leather eats up all the conditioners with no problems. The complete interior in this car is all leather, no synthetics on any part. This car gets leatherique once a year and Lexol twins monthly.

Car 2-is a 1995 Jaguar XJS convertible recently refinished in "new old stock" Connolly leather (barley) this leather has a matte finish and is coated. This car does accept the conditioners at a slower pace. The entire interior in this car is leather, no synthetics anywhere. and it also gets leatherique once a year and the Lexol twins monthly. I know it does absorb because a thin layer of Lexol even in cold weather makes the leather shiny for only a few minutes before turning matte again, so I don`t think it`s evaporating

Car 3-is a 2004 Jaguar X type sedan daily driver. This car has its original factory upholstery which is leather "trimmed" seating, meaning only the seating area is leather-the sides ,back of the seats, door panels, etc are all synthetic. The seating parts that are leather are not Connolly, but a lower grade harder leather that seems heavily coated and takes the longest to absorb any conditioner. This car also gets Letherique once a year and Lexol twins monthly on the leather seating areas and Mcguiars wipes on all the synthetic areas.

I keep on hearing that the conditioners are unnecessary for coated leather because it allegedly does not absorb anything at all and to do a "water drop test". Well I literally got a dropper and dropped a drop in all three leathers. All 3 did not absorb. I left the drops there for a very long time and it did not even leave a wet spot on the Connolly Vaumol leather which I thought was aniline, however they all seem to absorb the Lexol,specially car 1 and 2



I send a message to Leatherique and they told me that their leather rejuvenator does work in even coated leathers, but the amount of conflicting information out there is just overwhelming


So what is it? Are the top coats on the leather porous or not? I really can`t imagine that the vinyl coating on any car except the most elemental would be so thick as to turn the fine leather into a cheap plastic? Should i keep treating all three interiors the same way or am I doing something counterproductive ? From some of what I am reading all the companies that make leather conditioners are deceiving 95 percent of car owners with products that can`t get thru!

[Swanicyouth]

I`d use a leather sealant on all leathers. Clean and protect. That`s my motto. I`ve done all the research I can do on this subject from my home - and that is what I came up with.

"Conditioning" coated leather is like "feeding" clear coated paint. A bunch of nonsense IMHO. You can`t feed clear coat - it`s not very porous (and not hungry) and you can`t condition a polyurethane color/top coat.

My feeling is, regardless what you do to leather, it wears and ages - and can show its age. Yes, some leather looks newer longer than others - likely due to the sturdiness or the urethane topcoat of one over the other.

Really, I don`t think leather "protectors" do much either. They may help UV fading over time in a convertible passenger seat - if you drive around with the roof down and nobody sits in that seat.

My feeling is MOST manufacturers who manufacturer "protectants" GROSSLY exaggerate the lifespan of the protectant, as little evidence remains that any protectant is left for most products on a car that is driven daily in a few weeks.

So, to me - the best thing you can do is is to keep the leather clean (wiped down between major cleanings) using some pH neutral leather cleaner product - or even water.

I`d also recommend NOT using APCs / interior cleaners to clean leather - as most are in the pH 10+ range - which can strip the top coat & color coat OFF some leather that has seen some miles (not a brand new car). This is my experience, I`m not just talking off the top of my head.

Be wary of people who sell products who give advice regarding leather - as it seems the advice is always to use their super special conditioner / cleaner / protectant / "food" that THEY sell (duh?).

Now, waiting for all the experts to chime in to call me a jackass.

[Jaguarfan]

Thanks for your reply.

What you are saying is what I keep on hearing from many people. Basically all leather coatings are impermeable, non porous, even if they appear to accept a conditioner? And when companies like Lexol, Gliptone, etc etc are selling leather conditioners knowing that 95% of automotive leather is coated they are actively deceiving people? This is what is very difficult to grasp. I see most of these companies selling automotive leather conditioners claiming they will work on all or most auto leather, so there is either a misunderstanding on the porosity and permeability of leather coatings or an enterprise of deceit by all those who sell leather conditioners designed for cars.

The reason I described the different types of cars and leathers I have is because I was hoping someone who has dealt with those types of leathers can confirm that those particular leathers are either porous or not. To simply assume that the coating is a clear coat or a plastic and call it a day seems imprudent. Why coat expensive leather in impermeable plastic?

Could it it be possible that different pigmented/coated leathers have differently designed coatings and some may be more porous than others?

repeating what I said above,

the 74 car has been re-covered in new Connolly "Vaumol" style leather which definately soaks the conditioner although it fails the water drop test

the 95 has also been re-covered in new old stock Connolly leather which is the Connolly coated leather found in Jaguar cars of the late 80`s/90`s . This car seems to also absorb the Lexol but fails the water drop test as well

and the 04 car`s original leather surfaces which seems to have the heaviest coating seem to barely accept the Lexol conditioner and also fails the water drop test.


So the conditioners are doing nothing at all other than feel good for me?

[Vic Cardenas]

One thing I have learned in all my research is that every automotive leather surface is different... As you well know. For example, one patch for the headrest is different than the patch used for the bolster or the armrest, etc... On my Legend, they use a heavily coated leather for the headrests and seat tops, seemingly for sun protection. As for the seat bottoms, they seem to be highly absorbent and very soft. The steering wheel and armrest are entirely different leather with very different properties. On the RL, made a few years after my Legend, they use very different leather surfaces than the Legend even though it looks almost identical. My point is, that every patch of leather in your car will perhaps behave differently than the patch next to it in how it will absorb product. Leather is not a uniform surface and the coatings used to protect them NOT ALWAYS will surround and completely protect the leather fibers in cryptonite.

Another thing I`ve learned, is there is very little real good advice on the internet about automotive leather surfaces. There is info here and there that is passed on over there by some guy who read this or that on that forum and there is a big grapevine effect that has muddled the sound advice into non-existence.

Not all automotive surfaces are coated in "urethane", whatever that is, a very misleading term. Which is what most Internet Experts say ALL leather is coated with. There are polyurethanes in use as leather coatings but the way they are applied varies greatly from manufacturer to manufacturer and not all automotive leather coatings are made up of polyurethane (also a very broad term for a wide range of "end product"). There is a vast sea of chemicals used as coatings and not all behave as impermeable "sealants" to leather fibers and not all of these coatings are everlasting.

Let me ask you, where do you think the leather conditioning product is going if it is disappearing into your leather? Surely it is not evaporating into thin air like a magic trick just to deceive the user. It is getting absorbed into the leather in some way, even if the leather is coated with some type of super sealing polyurethane. Albeit, I have encountered very "plasticy" leather that cannot be penetrated by leather products. But then sometimes another leather product will penetrate. If the leather was coated with a thick layer of polyurethane, don`t you think your leather would be stiff like a polyurethane coat you would spray onto outdoor furniture? Sure, there are some cheap manufactures that literally just spray on coating onto the nearly assembled seat and they do harden up like plastic (and flake off over years in some cases). There are some manufactures that mix high tech and softer more flexible coatings with the fatliquors and the leather fibers are nearly suspended and VIRTUALLY impermeable. But in my experience, nearly all leather will benefit from a good leather conditioner or cleaner some time in it`s lifetime. Especially when it is old and flexible. The trouble is, what is a good leather conditioner that will penetrate your leather? That`s a tough question as there are so many variables.

One more thing... If the drop of water is suspended on a piece of leather, that does not necessarily mean that the leather cannot be penetrated by a leather product. A bead of water is just that, a bead. The "pores" in the leather can be much smaller than a bead of water and can usually contain some type of hydrophobic product, like the one you have been using, or the polyurethane (also hydrophobic) coating itself is doing it`s job against that drop of water. Just because leather doesn`t absorb a drop of water does not mean it cannot accept a rubbed in and warmed product. What would happen to that same bead of water if your rubbed it into the leather? Imagine the leather is like your hand with your fingers curled up and the drop of water is like a ball that you are holding by the tips of your fingers. That`s what your coated leather would look like under a microscope.

Now just for full disclosure, I am developing a leather conditioning product for my own capital gain. I hope that doesn`t get me banned! I have been doing a ton of research on the subject so that I can make a good product that actually works. I`m not the type of guy that would go into the business of deceiving or using magic tricks. I guess the biggest point I can try and make is that all leather is different and not all product will behave the same or even work at all on one patch verses another patch and one manufacturers leather to another manufacturers leather. Try a product and if you hate the after effects... stop using it. If you like how it works... then use it.

To answer your question, IMHO, yes the leather is "porous"; just not like you think and sometimes not at all depending on many factors that I cannot answer without actually analyzing your leather.

[Swanicyouth]

^ sorry my friend... I have to disagree on a few points. Today`s automobile leather is coated with a polyurethane coating. Of course there are other things "in it". In reading your post, first you seem to be saying it isn`t - then it is. Confused. And as for "urethane - whatever that is" - polyurethane and urethane are often terms used interchangeably.

To find a product you like and use it, I think I common sense. To to say you personally have to do some test or make some analysis to determine if the product is correct for any one specific leather is kind of crazy.

If you can sit "leather conditioner" on a seat and run it around with a towel - and maybe some is absorbed in the leather - can you tell me what good it will do? The whole functional / visual part of the leather is the top coat and color coat. I`m not sure why it`s so important to "condition" (whatever that means) something you can`t even see???

[Jaguarfan]

@Vic-thanks for your reply. It would seem that different automobile tanneries would use different processes. The new leathers in cars 1 and 2 which are both authentic new old stock Connolly do seem to absorb, coated or not. However car 3 with its factory leather seems to absorb differently, meaning the rear seats absorb much better than the front. The front seats on that car seem to have a harder, less permeable type of coating. I am assuming this is done for wear and tear reasons?

@swanicyouth-thanks for your reply. so the coating in these leathers are so thick that they basically form a second skin?. I thought it was a super thin sacrificial/protective layer that maintained all the qualities and feel of leather. If this synthetic film is so thick then I might as well should have gotten my cars re-done in vynil instead of expensive Connolly leather. What is the point of even using any type of leather?. It`s like the poor animals dies in vain if their skin is coated in a thick plastic that changes everything about what makes leather leather. I would hope that the top coat is just a short term protectant-but like I said I don`t know what is true about this anymore .

[Swanicyouth]

^ a lot of manufacturers do use leather / vinyl interchangeably on different surfaces and some may be hard pressed to tell exactly what it is. Most new cars "with leather" also have vinyl on various surfaces.

Since you are working primarily on the top coat, that is why there is a ton of protectants out there that specifically say they can be used in leather or vinyl. This is because the basic cleaning and maintenance of the two is similar - clean and protect.

Why do they still use leather? Probably the same reason why some still use sheepskin wash mitts to wash there car when microfiber has been proven just as safe time and time again - because people just like it and are willing to pay for it.

In Europe leather seating is not so popular on the average car.

[Vic Cardenas]

^ sorry my friend... I have to disagree on a few points. Today`s automobile leather is coated with a polyurethane coating. Of course there are other things "in it". In reading your post, first you seem to be saying it isn`t - then it is. Confused. And as for "urethane - whatever that is" - polyurethane and urethane are often terms used interchangeably.

To find a product you like and use it, I think I common sense. To to say you personally have to do some test or make some analysis to determine if the product is correct for any one specific leather is kind of crazy.

If you can sit "leather conditioner" on a seat and run it around with a towel - and maybe some is absorbed in the leather - can you tell me what good it will do? The whole functional / visual part of the leather is the top coat and color coat. I`m not sure why it`s so important to "condition" (whatever that means) something you can`t even see???

No confusion on my part.

What I do find confusing is the statements I find on the internet that state "All leather is coated in polyurethane. No point in using any product." (Not that you said exactly that) To me, it`s like saying the world is flat.

The confusion lies in people like the OP that read so many conflicting theories that are accepted as fact on the internet. The confusion also lies in those of us that understand that urethane or polyurethane can encompass thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of dissimilar chemical products and if even every single manufacturer used one single polyurethane product universally, there would still be the variable of their vastly different manufacturing techniques and also the different properties of every scrap of leather that comes through their door. Polyurethane is not some magical substance that coats every molecule of leather in unobtanium. Leather is not a uniform product that can not be coated uniformly very easily.

And I would agree with you. It would be crazy for me to personally analyze every scrap of leather to make a recommendation on how well a leather product will penetrate it. I was exaggerating, after all.

My stance on using towels with leather products is... Usually that towel will advertise that "it absorbs 7-10 times their weight in gold!". What do you think that towel is doing for the leather product? If you don`t use a towel and use your hands, obviously you see more product spreading around. That is a given. This perhaps will deter the user because it does not seem like the product is absorbed. If you use heating techniques to let the product absorb over time and you are still seeing massive pooling, then perhaps this was one of those times that you were just wasting product. If the heated leather absorbs the product. Well, there you go, I think it`s safe to say it did not evaporate. I do like to use towels for that final buff, to remove any excess product that was not absorbed. Just not to apply the product. If you are applying product to a leather surface and some and not all of it is getting absorbed, do you think the polyurethane coating is what is absorbing it?

The front seats on that car seem to have a harder, less permeable type of coating. I am assuming this is done for wear and tear reasons?

Yes, I think it`s safe to say that it is more heavily coated from the factory, much like my front headrests on my car for protection. The product may not absorb well into this leather, perhaps not at all... I hope I helped you understand more about leather.

[Stokdgs]

Jaguarfan, Swanicyouth, Vic Cardenas ---

Thank you gentlemen, for your posts..

I remember almost a decade ago when the Leatherique twins I believe, were the rage and this required slathering an oil by hand all over your seats, etc., letting it sit and absorb for at least 24 hours, then cleaning it all up with another product.
I also recall everyone who went to this level of leather maintenance saying that their seats came out much cleaner, softer, pliable, etc., than before..

So, there must be something to it in the absorption process, or the leather surfaces would not have become softer..

I am in process of contacting a major supplier of Leather Hides in the USA, whose product I have used for years on all the German cars I have detailed with very good results, and will see if they can help crack the code a little better..
Just read on their website where they talk about splitting a hide to separate the top less porous, stronger, hide from the rest which would be sold to those who make suede, alcantara leather products.. Very interesting..

Vic Cardenas - I seem to know your name from somewhere - perhaps a couple of Forums before this one ? Great research and findings - thank you - keep it up !
Dan F

[Ronkh]

Can`t tell you about Jag, but BMW uses coated leather. And on their Verts, add a second coating that is actually a sunscreen/anti burn coating that reflect sun and makes sure seating surfaces don`t get to hot to sit on in sun.

Dunno if it`s pertinent here, but figured I`d chime in

[Jaguarfan]

@Stokdgs-thanks for your reply. I did try to find what the process for the "new old stock" Connolly hides exactly was, but I never received an answer. Connolly Leathers went out of business in 2001 and merchant in Florida bought all of their remaining Jaguar hides, which is what was used to make the new interior for my 95 Jaguar XJS. Since then Connolly has reopened their doors, but I have not received any reply, and the Florida merchant who made the new interior really has no idea. On the other hand the interior for the 1974 E type was sold to me as new aniline Connolly Vaumol leather they are now producing again for classic cars. They claim its aniline, and it does absorb conditioners, but like I said fails the water test.

@Vic- thanks -and I am inclined to believe what You are saying. Although there may be aniline, semi aniline, and coated leather type sub-groups, there are a wide range of differences within the "coated/pigmented" category itself.

[Stokdgs]

Jaguarfan -
You are welcome ! I am always glad to help..

I remember using Connolly Hide Food on English vehicles we had in the Shop when I was Painting..
It always had this unique smell and feel, but worked pretty darn good on old dry leather seats back then..

After I posted last, remembered another Leather brand - Leather Masters - and they had this man, a Dr.Tork, who was said to be the Inventor of all their products..

I believe it may have been him or another man who worked for Leather Masters that had a Forum out there for awhile..
He seemed to know way more about leather, than anyone else I had ever talked to, and holy cow (yeah, a shameless pun), there is so much to know about it..

Even just stretching it while treating it, has an effect on things, etc...

I remembered him saying that product does indeed get absorbed and that all leather needs a product on it to keep it from drying out and hardening...

Will see if I can remember or perhaps I have saved his Forum URL somewhere, so we can have yet another place to go learn..

Im inclined also, to go with what Vic Cardenas is doing and it appears that he has spent way more time doing the research..

Dan F

[Jaguarfan]

Thanks everyone for your help.

my conclusions, for what it`s worth, and for anyone who has the same types of Jaguar leathers/cars as noted in my first post, is that they are all porous and benefit from the conditioners. Since my initial post I have been again testing the conditioners on the cars, in cold weather (to rule out drying or evaporation) and they all absorb ,with the X type front seats being the most difficult, but still softening and absorbing to a much lesser degree. The conditioner (Lexol in my case) is not drying or evaporating it`s actually going in .

The input here greatly helped me to figure out what I already suspected about the leathers in my cars. While I am not familiar with what other coated leathers do from other car Marques or even different Jaguar models, the respective coated leathers in my Jaguars are all absorbing conditioners, even though they all fail the infamous "water drop" test. A spray worth of Lexol in a pad rubbed in the Connolly Vaumol or late Connolly leathers will go from shiny to matte in seconds.


Thanks again

[plumbnsquare]

you can avoid all confusion by using a manufacturer thats products overlap and function the same on analine and finished/coated leather.

My choice is Leather Masters. I use their strong cleaner on my analine couch and my finished leather car seats.

Same goes for the protectant. I use Leather Masters Protection cream on my car seats and used to use it on my analine couch. I have now switched out to using their new product "Leather Barrier" on my analine couch as its a REAL PIA removing the dye transfer on the couch.

I dont care what anyone says the Protection cream DOES make a BIG difference in dye tranfer setting in. Especially on analine. With car seats its a different story. they clean up with ease compared to natural leather.

Before I used Protection cream on the analine couch getting the stains out was a serious task. If I went to aggressive with the couch it will screw up the texture of the leather. I went aggressive on the back of the couch with the cleaner and the stiff brush and thank god I did a test spot because I actually flattened out and removed the texture of the leather !!! So I stepped back and had to just take my time and clean the couch 3 times or so and let it dry inbetween. Since using the protectant I am able to clean up color transfer and stains much easier. and I know it works because the cleaner does not soak into the leather as easily. meaning I can use a lot of cleaner and the leather drys a lot faster because the water/cleaner doesnt soak in as fast or easily.

So yeah, I basically use LM for everything leather. It also gives the seats a very nice soft feel that is not slippery. It actually gives the leather a bit more grip and leaves them 100% matte looking.

[plumbnsquare]

I`d use a leather sealant on all leathers. Clean and protect. That`s my motto. I`ve done all the research I can do on this subject from my home - and that is what I came up with.

"Conditioning" coated leather is like "feeding" clear coated paint. A bunch of nonsense IMHO. You can`t feed clear coat - it`s not very porous (and not hungry) and you can`t condition a polyurethane color/top coat.

My feeling is, regardless what you do to leather, it wears and ages - and can show its age. Yes, some leather looks newer longer than others - likely due to the sturdiness or the urethane topcoat of one over the other.

Really, I don`t think leather "protectors" do much either. They may help UV fading over time in a convertible passenger seat - if you drive around with the roof down and nobody sits in that seat.

My feeling is MOST manufacturers who manufacturer "protectants" GROSSLY exaggerate the lifespan of the protectant, as little evidence remains that any protectant is left for most products on a car that is driven daily in a few weeks.

So, to me - the best thing you can do is is to keep the leather clean (wiped down between major cleanings) using some pH neutral leather cleaner product - or even water.

I`d also recommend NOT using APCs / interior cleaners to clean leather - as most are in the pH 10+ range - which can strip the top coat & color coat OFF some leather that has seen some miles (not a brand new car). This is my experience, I`m not just talking off the top of my head.

Be wary of people who sell products who give advice regarding leather - as it seems the advice is always to use their super special conditioner / cleaner / protectant / "food" that THEY sell (duh?).

Now, waiting for all the experts to chime in to call me a jackass.

I do agree with basically 95% of your post. But I disagree with the effectiveness of using a leather specific protecter. I must say I can only speak on one brand which is leather masters. I dont have any experience with other manufacturers protectants to the degree that I do with Leather Masters. If you working on black or dark color leather then its easy to come to that conclusion. Same goes for working on finished leather. again easy to come to those conclusions. But if you have analine leather or a very light colored seat like BMW silverstone or Audi while nappa, the effectiveness of leather protectants become obvious.