Tree sap or water spots: please help

[Paca12]

Hi,

Recently I noticed some darker drop-like patterns while drying the car. Initially I was not concern about this since after a few minutes they will "disappear," or at least that is what I thought. Two weeks ago I went on a ten-day road trip that included camping in the forest and a few rain showers under the sun, so as soon as I came back home I spent a whole day detailing the car. After a careful inspection, I noticed what seemed to be water spots. I have had water spots before on other cars, but I have always been able to get rid of them by hand with a very mild paint cleaner. This time though, neither vinegar, nor IPA worked. I tried swirl X, some scratch X, both by hand, and still nothing. I concluded then that the water, acid rain, sap, or whatever touched my paint had etched the clear coat. I proceeded to use my Griot`s machine, first using a Meguiar`s yellow pad with Ultimate Polish, then the yellow pad with Ultimate Compound, and finally the Red/Burgundy pad with Ultimate Compound, followed by a yellow pad and Ultimate Polish. After a few passes and two days of hard work, I thought the spots were gone. The car now shines like never before and besides a few random scratches mainly done at the dealership (the one time I forgot to tell them not to wash the car), the car is swirl free. But to my surprise, today I checked the car under a bright sunny sky, and at a certain angle I could still see some of the spots. They are really impossible to see under any other condition/lighting, but it still annoys me! I would really appreciate your expert help.



Should I keep polishing the car? I think one or two more passes will completely get rid of the spots, but I am just afraid to take too much of the clear coat. The car is less than a year old and it has only been polished once before. Also, I know Audi clear is really hard, so perhaps the etching is not deep but I have just not been able to take enough clear. I found a video of an almost new Audi having what seemed to be a very similar issue (it was sap in that case) and they got rid of the spots by wet sanding it first. Do you think there is a chance that I might go through the clear coat if I make one or two more passes of ultimate polish?



I have attached a few pictures that show some of the spots. Three of the four pictures are of the same area. I have circled the spots (the rectangle shows just fingerprints) in one of them and tried to show how in the other two pictures of the same area taken from a slightly different angle you can`t see such spots. This is the only angle from where you can actually see them at this point. Any other angle and they disappear, even under the brightest sunlight.



The last picture shows the only large spot still present in the car. Again I have circled the spot to differentiate it from the fingerprints that appear inside the rectangle. (There is also a small piece of blue tape close to the spot.) The form of this particular spot makes me believe that perhaps this was caused by tree sap rather than hard water or acid rain. Besides the purely cosmetic aspect of the issue, I am also concerned because I read somewhere that the minerals of hard water as well as sap could keep etching my clear coat if not completely taken off. Is this true?

Thank you very much in advance and sorry for the long post!

[JohnKleven]

Looks like water spots to me. The first thing I would try is some vinegar on a microfiber towel, see if it can be cleaned and neutralized. If it doesn`t come off, it will likely need to be polished or even wetsanded. Best of luck!

[Paca12]

Thank you for your reply!

I have tried with vinegar as well as IPA. Using the red/burgundy pad from meguiars with Ultimate Compound, followed by the yellow pad and Ultimate Polish seem to be working, but my concern is not to go through the clear coat. Do you think it should be fine to apply a few more passes?

Thanks

[Nth Degree]

Your post is a little hard to read because of the big block. In the future try to break it up a little.



You are on the right track and your concerns about over-polishing are valid. Audi paint does tend to be on the hard side, so it is possible that it is simply being stubborn. You are discovering how difficult it is to maintain a perfect finish. A daily driver is going to face a constant assault from the elements, bugs and road debris.



My recommendation would be to stop where you are for now and keep a good coat of wax or sealant on the car for a sacrificial barrier. Keep a close eye on it for the next few months to see if more spots develop. Now that you realize how quickly they can etch the paint you will likely be more inclined to wash the car more frequently. If the paint manages to go for a few months without more etching then it might be worth going after those spots a little more. If more develop I would recommend sticking with lighter polishing every 6 months or so. Over time you will reduce the deeper ones and still have enough clear to work with safely.



It sounds like you have removed the contaminants from the spots so you shouldn`t have to worry about those. It is possible for spots that are allowed to remain on the paint to continually be reactivated by water and continue to etch. In reality, though, even a single shot from a sprinkler with hard water can do an amazing amount of damage in a short time during the hot months. Simply continue to maintain the best you can with waxing and periodic, non-aggressive polishing and you will likely minimize any potential damage. If not then it might be an exercise in futility.

[imported_RZJZA80]

Since you have water spots, I will assume there`s no LSP for at least a little while, so i would just go right to polishing the car, then applying an LSP (or two). Removing with vinegar will work fine, but might as well polish it up and LSP it so you don`t get further water spots imo.

[Paca12]

Thank you so much for your thorough response Nth Degree!

The paragraphs are now clearly separated.



Your advice obviously makes a lot of sense, so I will do my best to follow it.



I am really glad to know that the contaminants have been removed. I must confess though, that it is very tempting to keep going a little further. It just seems that I am very close to getting rid of all the spots.

Thanks

[Paca12]

Since you have water spots, I will assume there`s no LSP for at least a little while, so i would just go right to polishing the car, then applying an LSP (or two). Removing with vinegar will work fine, but might as well polish it up and LSP it so you don`t get further water spots imo.

Thank you for your response!

Actually I have tried to always keep a good coat of LSP on the car as well as washing it regularly. This is the reason why I am surprised about this problem. I am not sure if Audis are prone to this problem - this is the first time I own one. In the past I never had problems getting rid of water spots.

Thanks

[togwt]

These articles may provide some relevant information and How-To’s:

http://www.autopia.org/forum/autopia...yperlinks.html

[Paca12]

Thank you TOGWT for the fantastic information. I actually read your info regarding water and sap spots last week while doing some research on the subject, and followed your advice and applied vinegar and IPA prior to machine polishing the paint. My main concerns are two:



1. Should I keep polishing the car until I completely get rid of the spots? Or should I be concern about taking too much clear from the car? As I stated in the original post, the car is a relatively new Audi with a very hard paint. I feel that I am very close to getting all the spots out. I found a video of an Audi (the same model and I think the same color!) having what appear to be exactly the same problem I have. In that case they sanded the car. So I am assuming that a few more passes of Ultimate Compound in my case would not be a problem, but as Nth Degree wrote, it might be a good idea just to stop for now.



Removing tree sap etching : vID:022



2. Do I need to use something like the "A-B-C" Neutralization System in order to get rid of all the minerals that might harm the paint, or just by using IPA, vinegar, and polishing compound I should be fine?



Thank you

[Paca12]

Does anyone have an idea of how much would they charge me for assessing my paint, including measuring the thickness of my clear?

Thank you in advance!

[togwt]

1. Should I keep polishing the car until I completely get rid of the spots? Or should I be concern about taking too much clear from the car? As I stated in the original post, the car is a relatively new Audi with a very hard paint. I feel that I am very close to getting all the spots out. I found a video of an Audi (the same model and I think the same color!) having what appear to be exactly the same problem I have. In that case they sanded the car. So I am assuming that a few more passes of Ultimate Compound in my case would not be a problem, but as Nth Degree wrote, it might be a good idea just to stop for now.



There is only a finite amount of clear coat you can remove until its ultra violet (UV) protection is compromised - http://www.autopia.org/forum/car-det...-removal.html#



2. Do I need to use something like the "A-B-C" Neutralization System in order to get rid of all the minerals that might harm the paint, or just by using IPA, vinegar, and polishing compound I should be fine?



I would definitely recommend this process; especially for a new vehicle- http://www.autopia.org/forum/autopia...on-system.html

[Paca12]

Thank you for all your help TOGWT!

I will try to contact a detailer here in MA that can assess my paint using a paint thickness gauge, and also look into the decontamination system.