Why no silicone?

T

therion

New member
Is silicone harmful to car paint?

Car wax companies said that no silicone in their wax.

Why do they said like this?

What exactly does silicone do to car paint?
 
I don't think silicone does anything helpful to car paint--it doesn't bond with the paint, doesn't enhance its look, doesn't cure on the surface. Some have environmental concerns with silicone-based products.
But I think the real reason is for creating a body-shop safe environment. Silicones are really bad for paint shops and will ruin paint jobs. Waxes will too, but not as bad as silicones, and are not typically airborne.
 
PEI Detail said:
I don't think silicone does anything helpful to car paint--it doesn't bond with the paint, doesn't enhance its look, doesn't cure on the surface. Some have environmental concerns with silicone-based products.
But I think the real reason is for creating a body-shop safe environment. Silicones are really bad for paint shops and will ruin paint jobs. Waxes will too, but not as bad as silicones, and are not typically airborne.
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98% of the sealants made today contain siloxane..a silicone polymer....and it does cure...and harden...even some waxes contain the siloxane polymer ..and some polishes....and does bond to the paint also....

any body shop should prep a car before paint...doing a wash down of prep sol or another type cleaner to ensure any paint fouling products are free from the paint....silicone polynmers are non migrateing silicones..meaning it does not seep into the paint....

Al
 
most paint sealants use siloxane polymers in their sealants. Zaino doesn't and I don't believe that true Acryllic products like Klasse and JW do either. Siloxanes aren't hamful but my understanding is that they are more like waxes than true crosslinking polymer systems. One issue with VOC compliant siloxane sealants is that they seem to absorb dirt more than the older versions.
 
I sprayed my wheel wells once with a product that contained silicone after a full polish and seal. my car stayed in the garage overnight when i pulled out in the morning there was tiny oil spots that settled on top of the finish..i suspect the silicone was in the air and settled on the finish overnight...if so i see why body shops need non silicone products in there shop..
 
wannafbody said:
most paint sealants use siloxane polymers in their sealants. Zaino doesn't and I don't believe that true Acryllic products like Klasse and JW do either. Siloxanes aren't hamful but my understanding is that they are more like waxes than true crosslinking polymer systems. One issue with VOC compliant siloxane sealants is that they seem to absorb dirt more than the older versions.
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Amino-Functional Silicone polymers (from Ron ketchum and Bud Abrams)
This is a silicone fluid that has been slightly modified. The polymer content is different. The amino portion of the amino-functional silicone is what causes the silicone to crosslink and physically attach to the paint surface. This cross linking capability is what makes a paint sealant more durable than a typical wax. As mentioned, waxes usually only contain standard silicone fluids that do not crosslink, so are not as durable as a paint sealant.

A Polymer
Comes from the Greek, "poly" meaning "many" and the word "mer" meaning "units."
Chemically it is a macro-molecule formed by the chemical union of 5 or more identical combining units called, monomers.
Silicones and resins can be generalized then, as "polymers."
And, the list of polymers available to the chemical formulator is practically endless.


I think your info is off abit...siloxane is a crosslinking polymer..it gives up one molecule to take another during the crosslink

how does it absorb dirt...the polymer dries to a hard clear shell..not a porous sponge like finish...what your saying is that when you wash your car the finish will be dirty cause the sealant absorbs the dirt....and it is more the carriers that need the VOC change ...the solvents...not the polymers as you find siloxane in food products....


and when some one says zaino does not..how do you know...show me the info...not bashing zaino...good product...

AL
 
AL-53 said:
Amino-Functional Silicone polymers (from Ron ketchum and Bud Abrams)
This is a silicone fluid that has been slightly modified. The polymer content is different. The amino portion of the amino-functional silicone is what causes the silicone to crosslink and physically attach to the paint surface. This cross linking capability is what makes a paint sealant more durable than a typical wax. As mentioned, waxes usually only contain standard silicone fluids that do not crosslink, so are not as durable as a paint sealant.

A Polymer
Comes from the Greek, "poly" meaning "many" and the word "mer" meaning "units."
Chemically it is a macro-molecule formed by the chemical union of 5 or more identical combining units called, monomers.
Silicones and resins can be generalized then, as "polymers."
And, the list of polymers available to the chemical formulator is practically endless.


I think your info is off abit...siloxane is a crosslinking polymer..it gives up one molecule to take another during the crosslink

how does it absorb dirt...the polymer dries to a hard clear shell..not a porous sponge like finish...what your saying is that when you wash your car the finish will be dirty cause the sealant absorbs the dirt....and it is more the carriers that need the VOC change ...the solvents...not the polymers as you find siloxane in food products....


and when some one says zaino does not..how do you know...show me the info...not bashing zaino...good product...

AL
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you're probably right. siloxanes probably crosslink. but my experience is that some siloxane sealants do indeed trap dirt. Wash and then apply another coat of the same product. See how much dirt is transferred to your applicator. I'm of the opinion that the changes to the VOC laws have negatively affected some products. 2 part systems like Zaino and Duragloss seem to crosslink more strongly and tighter.
 
wannafbody said:
you're probably right. siloxanes probably crosslink. but my experience is that some siloxane sealants do indeed trap dirt. Wash and then apply another coat of the same product. See how much dirt is transferred to your applicator. I'm of the opinion that the changes to the VOC laws have negatively affected some products. 2 part systems like Zaino and Duragloss seem to crosslink more strongly and tighter.
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Considering I have NO idea about anything mentioned above other than what was there to read, I don't think the product itself traps dirt. I've noticed certain products attract/grab more dust/pollen than others, and likewise some products make removal easier than others as well. When you're getting dirt on your applicator, what panel are you starting/finishing on (Or how do you usually start/finish)? Depending on where you start, or how long the car has been exposed to "elements" before applying your LSP, maybe some dust/pollen or other small particles have settled on the surface? I've noticed than even products that don't contain cleaners seem to remove minor contamination on the surface (if there is any light contamination that is). And perhaps all these different synthetics that contain "siloxanes" might bond differently to different style paintjobs, or even different manufacturers' clear coats? The end result being that these products perform differently in every application?

One thing to remember with all these products is that every one of us lives in climates that greatly differ from one another, or maybe they're similar? A lot of products are tested in "real world" applications, yet they're limited to what conditions or the exposure they see. In a way, it's the same as a controlled environment in a lab, IMO... That can't necessarily give you an accurate answer

Dolan
 
I tested one product and applied another layer a month later(after a wash of course). The applicator was black from dirt.
 
wannafbody said:
I tested one product and applied another layer a month later(after a wash of course). The applicator was black from dirt.
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You have to take into consideration that your vehicle could have seen a lot of fallout, or like I said, varying climates could effect the way a product performs (i.e dirt/fallout sticking to the paint, longevity...). Someone else might have a 60 mile a day commute and their vehicle could possibly have less fallout. You can't really blame the product for what is seen on the applicator

$.02

Dolan

I'm not trying to start a heated debate, but this is an interesting topic IMO :)
 
I agree with Likearock..shampoos will not remove every thing..and some fallout is hard to remove with some of the mild shampoos we use....

Diesel smog...coal powered generating plant fallout....airport fallout...car smog. and other types of industrial fallout.....these will adhere to paint and be very hard to remove with gentle car shampoos..

I do not think the sealant is aborbing them ..more like the particles are etching on the sealants and embedding......most contain a acid ..that is why when these particles combined with rain cause acid rain...

I do not think there is a product that can prevent this process..

some areas are more prone to this action than others...

that is why claying is used to remove fallout particles that have etched in...or some systems like Autoint's and Fk's decomtaminatin systems that used a chemical to remove such fallout...

AL
 
LikeaRock said:
You have to take into consideration that your vehicle could have seen a lot of fallout, or like I said, varying climates could effect the way a product performs (i.e dirt/fallout sticking to the paint, longevity...). Someone else might have a 60 mile a day commute and their vehicle could possibly have less fallout. You can't really blame the product for what is seen on the applicator

$.02

Dolan

I'm not trying to start a heated debate, but this is an interesting topic IMO :)
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I had significantly more dirt transfer in 1 month vs several months old applications of Zaino and Duragloss. IMO the 2 part systems are superior.
 
wannafbody said:
I had significantly more dirt transfer in 1 month vs several months old applications of Zaino and Duragloss. IMO the 2 part systems are superior.
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Again, the conditions your particular vehicle sees will effect the dirt transfer you get on the applicator. Regardless of whether or not your car sees the same stops day in and day out, you never know what is floating around in the air at any time. And what product was this that had trapped more fallout than Zaino and Duragloss? How was the finish cared for? There's lots of questions that come into play...

Like I said, you can't put 100% of the blame on the product. Maybe in your case the 2-part systems showed better results, but I would never blame any product for the amount of fallout that is trapped on the surface. True, different products do leave more fallout on the surface, but you're never going to get around that.
 
I live near a coal plant so our conditions pretty much suck year round. lots of dirt gets deposited on the cars after each rain. I pretty much agree that no product will protect from acid rain.
 
something else to consider is not just wether the sealant crosslinks to itself but how it bonds to the paint. Some companies claim that oils help their products adhere to the surface. IMO if a product actually bonds to the paint it's stronger than bonding to oils on the paint. That's why IMO the DG 601 and ZFX work so well. They promote their products bonding to the paint.
 
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