Why do a ISP wipedown before your LSP ??

D

DM101

New member
Why do a ISP wipedown before your LSP ?? I am looking for wetness and depth. Say you use PO85RD and Fuzion as your LSP. Why would you want to remove the oils the PO85RD left before the fuzion (or Souveran). I see a number of people here do a ISP wipedown before LSP's.
 
So when the LSP goes away the swirls/scratches you tried to remove dont come back... The oils in the polishes aren't there to provide looks..
 
Decided to add this disclaimer before posting: The following is *NOT* intended as a criticism of people who do the wipedowns. Do what works best for you and let's all remember that different people are dealing with different situations.



I don't do the wipedowns, at least not regularly. Most of the products I use don't leave enough behind to conceal anything and when I use stuff that *can* conceal that's one reason why I chose to use it. I don't have a problem with concealed issues coming back to haunt me except in the rare instances (e.g., my Jag and RX-7) where a vehicle simply cannot be corrected any more and I'm deliberately taking advantage of the fillers (so it's not really a *problem* at all).



(Last time it *was* a problem was when I tried to correct an Audi with #80 and then used an AIO-type product that stripped the stuff #80 leaves behind. Lessons learned...#80 is a bit mild for that paint via Cyclo and #80 conceals more than I woulda expected.)



If bonding is a potential issue, I simply take that into account when chosing which products I use. Some of the combos I use work surprisingly well in this regard- who woulda thought that UPP would bond perfectly over the stuff 1Z Pro MP leaves behind? Who woulda thought that using 1Z WPS before Collinite would have zero effect on the durability?



I suppose this pretty much boils down to what your abrasive products are, as I've had stuff comb back when the vehicle in question was polished with Menzerna 106FF (no, that's *NOT* a slam at the fellow member who did the work, but rather one more reason why I prefer 1Z High Gloss).



And yeah, if I had to deal with different paints I'd possibly be approaching this whole thing very differently.



Here's a devil's advocate version of some food for thought:



-Consider that Meguiar's Trade Secret Oils are indeed intended to improve looks; some of their abrasive polishes do a fair bit of concealing and it's suppose to be a feature (I can hear Mike Phillips defending this by saying "hey, does the car look better? Then that's that" or words to that effect).



-Some of the penultimate products that're "supposed" to be used before the LSP as part of a given system (P21S GEPC, Pinnacle PCL, Zymol HDC, BlackFire GEP, etc.) leave fillers/concealing agents behind. AFAIK you're supposed to do the correction to the extent desired and then use these products with the idea that the concealing is an added benefit (in addition to any gloss-enhancing and LSP-bonding characteristics).
 
2 reasons:



1. The vast majority of abrasive polishes will conceal/hide/cover up some defects. Whether it's intentional or not, they *do* conceal. I do an IPA wipedown to make sure that the paint is truly corrected. If a customer is paying me for paint correction, then I make sure that I have positively corrected the paint; not covering it up with polishing oils.



2. This is just MHO, but the lubricants (oils, parafin based, etc) can't be good for LSP adhesion.
 
Acc makes some good points. However, for myself, I guess the bottom line is that if I want to fill in any defects that I don't polish out, I'll use a glaze. Otherwise, it's IPA wipedowns all the time--no exceptions. When I polish, I don't want to see my paint through rose colored glasses, so to speak.
 
I disagree the oils are there not to improve looks. Look a the fine polishes made by 3M and Menerza. When you are finished your ready for your LSP. I have never had a LSP adhesion problem. That is also what glazes are for. to add oils and other stuff for a WOW finish.
 
I have to say im a bit of an oil lover i dont like do the alcohol wipe down either, then again i mostly only detail for myself.



I was going to add that Menzerna do a spray "Top Inspection" its like an alcohol wipdown but a bit more expensive. Its for removing the oils so you can see your polishing work.



Geoff
 
SuperBee364 said:
2. This is just MHO, but the lubricants (oils, parafin based, etc) can't be good for LSP adhesion.
Click to expand...

This may not be entirely correct (even though it is conventional Autopia wisdom...and until recently, mine too.)



According to an interesting post recently on MOL, Megs chemist made a case for their TS oils actually *aiding* LSP adhesion and durability. (I have to have a look for it. :think: )



The logic, in brief, is that LSP need help to spread and adhere to the paint. An oily base actually helps in this.



I'd imagine this applies to any oil-in-water emulsion and pastes (which have an even higher PD content.)



There are a few exceptions (like Zaino), but they are few.
 
If i am using the same brand of LSP as I did polish (megs polish then megs wax), i wont IPA. Megs says all there products are designed to work together. If i'm using different brands, then i will IPA wipedown. example: Meg's polish followed by collinite wax
 
MDRX8 said:
I disagree the oils are there not to improve looks. Look a the fine polishes made by 3M and Menerza. When you are finished your ready for your LSP. I have never had a LSP adhesion problem. That is also what glazes are for. to add oils and other stuff for a WOW finish.
Click to expand...



I completely agree (with the bolded part). ;)



The point I was trying to make is that if a customer is paying me to correct their paint, then that's what I want to give them: corrected paint. Not paint that still has defects in it that have been covered up by polishing oils or glazes.



Yeah, I'll use the glaze for the extra pop in the looks department, but prior to that, I will have done a very thorough IPA wipedown and corrected any defects that the polishing oils were hiding.



And as for the adhesion stuff.... I'm not talking about an LSP jumping off the paint and back on to the pad, I'm talking about how it effects durability. The results I have aren't consistent enough to be able to make a blanket statement, however, I have seen some LSP's durability suffer due to their still being polishing oils still on the paint. From what I've seen, this is particularly a problem with sealants. Sealants *do not* like oil.



I don't mean to sound :argue but to me, an IPA wipedown followed by a thorough defect inspection, followed by correcting any found defects, is simply not an optional part of a detail that includes paint correction. There's just no other way to tell if the paint is truly corrected; *all* polishes will do *some* concealing. It's just the nature of the lubricants.
 
SuperBee364 and Bostonsfavson- No worries, doesn't sound like :argue to me just differing opinions and experiences (which can be based on all sorts of stuff). Good food for thought IMO, the way we've approached it from both sides and I'm pretty confident that none of us are *wrong* about what happens in our individual situations, which I can readily imagine can vary greatly.
 
Now this may apply only the Meguiar's but either way I will follow the directions on the bottle. I don't recall ever seeing a polish that said I should wipe the paint down with IPA before waxing and I personally do think polishes add to the paint.





Taken from MOL...



From one of our chemists...



A wax, (natural or synthetic), is a substance that when applied to a surface will not adhere properly on its own. Thus, it is necessary to add specialized miscible oils to allow the waxy material to spread and adhere evenly to the surface. These oils along with polymers are responsible for improving the functionality of the wax protection, appearance, adherence and the overall application.



This means the addition of any Meguiar's polishes prior to the wax application will not only enhance the paint finish, but also aid in the appearance, adherence and overall lasting ability of the wax which is applied over the top of it.



Here is the whole thread if you want to read it all...

Do Glazes/Fillers affect the bonding of NXT? - Car Care Forums: Meguiar's Online
 
Thanks for the info. I never use a ISP wipe down on my cars.



RaskyR1 said:
Now this may apply only the Meguiar's but either way I will follow the directions on the bottle. I don't recall ever seeing a polish that said I should wipe the paint down with IPA before waxing and I personally do think polishes add to the paint.





Taken from MOL...



From one of our chemists...



A wax, (natural or synthetic), is a substance that when applied to a surface will not adhere properly on its own. Thus, it is necessary to add specialized miscible oils to allow the waxy material to spread and adhere evenly to the surface. These oils along with polymers are responsible for improving the functionality of the wax protection, appearance, adherence and the overall application.



This means the addition of any Meguiar's polishes prior to the wax application will not only enhance the paint finish, but also aid in the appearance, adherence and overall lasting ability of the wax which is applied over the top of it.



Here is the whole thread if you want to read it all...

Do Glazes/Fillers affect the bonding of NXT? - Car Care Forums: Meguiar's Online
Click to expand...
 
But is that for just Meguair Polishes and Waxes?



Say I want to polish with M105/205 and put another brand of carnauba on? Will this still take effect?
 
While not absolute - I'm sure they are a few exceptions - I would think the principle above would still apply to cross-brand applications. Most *oils* that wet the paint are similar to each other, and they exist in both the glazes and PD-based LSPs.
 
I think I would rather do a total wash removing all waxes and sealants instead of a IPA wipe down, to inspect my work. Wouldn't that show all the defects remaining after a polish?
 
MDRX8 said:
I think I would rather do a total wash removing all waxes and sealants instead of a IPA wipe down, to inspect my work. Wouldn't that show all the defects remaining after a polish?
Click to expand...



I would think it depends on how strong your soap is. I mean have you ever done the test, where you dump water onto oil... Well the two just seperate...



So something like TOL's Silicone Remove, CG's Wash & Clear or something along those lines.
 
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