What the hell are these (Spots on paint)

M

MusicMan

New member
Wills.WindowsAndWheels said:
Hey everyone,



I'm stumped on this one.



About 3 weeks ago we went out to detail this Camaro 2010 772 HP BLACK Camaro SS...Swirl City - Auto Geek Online Auto Detailing Forum



It turned out great. The owner then had it set up to be trailered out to Cali for a show (We live in Arizona).



After arriving in Cali he gave it a wash and it was then left parted on the street. He was in Carmel, CA. It was during that time period that these spots appeared.



He emailed me and told me about them...i thought initially they were tree sap spots of some sort, figured we'd clay them out and maybe have to do touch up polishing...well that was not the case.



We got there earlier today...and these little spots were all over. On the hood and the doors mostly...and some on the quarter panels.



First we tried clay...which did NOTHING...and i mean NOTHING...didn't even fade some.



So next we tried spraying it with alcohol which again had zero effect.



We went on to try bug and tar remover and APC...still no luck.

We then tried to see if polishing would do ANYTHING, first with 205 and a Tangerine HT pad....no luck...and eventually ended up trying a Sur Buff pad with 105...on the Flex...and STILL nothing. Didn't even fade.



The odd part is, we can't even FEEL the defects. Like if sap were stuck to the paint, you'd be able to feel it on top of the paint, but it feels smooth. The other odd part is it only shows on the black part of the paint.



This car was sanded down and re-cleared about 1 1/2 years ago. I wondered at first if they were fish eyes of some sort, but it has been so quite a while since the clear had been sprayed so, I would think it would be odd for them to just now show up, but im not a painter so maybe its possible.



We started wondering if it was some sort of an insect that crawled on it in spots, because there was no 'splatter' like tree sap would make, especially on the horizontal panels.



Here are some photos i took...hope they help someone be able to pin point what this is and what to do about them.



If you look at the piece of tape ALL the way on the left, you can see some of the spots here...and all the pieces of tape are spots where the owner saw these spots or some scratches that needed to be touched up (thats another story, it happened during transport)



S7302843.JPG




This is on the hood, one of the better shots i was able to take and these are the spots we did the multiple steps listed above (claying, soaking, polishing etc)..and as you can see...no change



S7302875.JPG






here are a few on the top of the door frame:



S7302873.JPG




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I'm going to ask you guys to IGNORE the hideous swirls that have been put back into the paint here...and focus on the spots lol...swirls i can deal with, these spots are a total mystery to me though



S7302861.JPG






This was the biggest group of them over on the passenger door



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Sorry its a little blurry in this picture but i was trying to get a close up



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This is the front of the hood on the drivers side. I worry about the idea of wetsanding due to the fact that some of these spots are right on the panel edges.



Here is a little bit clearer shot



S7302850.JPG




So...thats what we're working with here. I'm stumped...he's stumped.



Maybe someone can pinpoint this for me and give us some direction as to where to go with it from now. Worst comes to worse he said he'd just file a claim and have a repaint...but that could mess him up w/his insurance company and plus put the car out of commission for 2 months at least and put us back at square one with some seriously swirled/hologramed paint...but then again its pretty messed up right now thanks to mr. transport *sigh*....



So, any ideas anyone?
Click to expand...



EDIT- NOW there are pictures lol
 
Do you know if the car was parked for a bit under a tree or some shrubs that had mulch around them since you had last seen it?



The reason I am asking is that this sounds like "artillary fungus" or in other words a species of mold that lives in mulch and "shoots up" and attaches, then actually enters the pores of the paint.

Gina is the real expert on this subject, and has developed a safe process to deal with them, WHEN they may be dealt with.

As I understand, there are times that nothing sort of a complete refinish will resolve the issue.

Grumpy
 
Bill D said:
No photos are visible...
Click to expand...



Ok i edited the post...pics are visable now



Ron Ketcham said:
Do you know if the car was parked for a bit under a tree or some shrubs that had mulch around them since you had last seen it?



The reason I am asking is that this sounds like "artillary fungus" or in other words a species of mold that lives in mulch and "shoots up" and attaches, then actually enters the pores of the paint.

Gina is the real expert on this subject, and has developed a safe process to deal with them, WHEN they may be dealt with.

As I understand, there are times that nothing sort of a complete refinish will resolve the issue.

Grumpy
Click to expand...



Grumpy, he told me that it was under some Maple and Pine trees but I'm not sure about any mulch. Now that the pictures are up does that help? Who is Gina lol?
 
Wow, that's got to be perplexing and I sure hope it doesn't require a repaint :( It is as if the paint has actually permanently changed color and has become white in each spot, huh? The mold explanation sounds serious and I sure hope Ron can put you in touch with Gina. I think she's an Automotive International employee?
 
Will certainly wait for the expert to chime in, but the only exploding mulch mold that I have seen has been on vinyl siding, and they are black specks, not white. Will be interested to hear what Gina has to say.



Jeff
 
She is only one of the most respected detail operators in the country.

Was voted Detailer of the Year a couple of years ago by Professional CarWash and Detailing magazine.

Her father has operated a very professional shop in Arlington, Va for over 3 decades.

Gina runs their multi shop operation in Richmond,Va, that are in conjunction with Car Pool carwashes.

Very professional, very intelligent and has done much true research on this and several other industry related subjects.

Her email is [email protected]

She was never an employee of AI, and only used what ValuGard products she felt were right for her operations.

No other connection than that.

Grumpy
 
mini1 said:
That looks like acid etch. Somebody in the show made sure he wasn't going to win.
Click to expand...



Initially that is what i thought. But wouldn't you be able to feel the spots if it was? Actually he did win Best Muscle Car in the show of about 300 cars lol...the spots are all over the car but in clustered sections like in the picture..so that part was good that even w/the spots..our detailing was so kick *** it still won an award lol.



IF it was acid, any solutions?



Ron Ketcham said:
She is only one of the most respected detail operators in the country.

Was voted Detailer of the Year a couple of years ago by Professional CarWash and Detailing magazine.

Her father has operated a very professional shop in Arlington, Va for over 3 decades.

Gina runs their multi shop operation in Richmond,Va, that are in conjunction with Car Pool carwashes.

Very professional, very intelligent and has done much true research on this and several other industry related subjects.

Her email is [email protected]

She was never an employee of AI, and only used what ValuGard products she felt were right for her operations.

No other connection than that.

Grumpy
Click to expand...



Grumpy,



thanks for the info, ill email her.

And yes i hope a few other experts chime in
 
Black99miata said:
Will certainly wait for the expert to chime in, but the only exploding mulch mold that I have seen has been on vinyl siding, and they are black specks, not white. Will be interested to hear what Gina has to say.



Jeff
Click to expand...



I've had artillery fungus attach to my cars before, but you're right, it is black or brown and not white. And clay usually won't touch it either.
 
mikenap said:
I've had artillery fungus attach to my cars before, but you're right, it is black or brown and not white. And clay usually won't touch it either.
Click to expand...



Ya exactly...thats what ive found so far..and also it appears as a dot on the surface...it doesnt feel smooth...thats what still is confusing me..is that i cant FEEL it
 
I wrote Gina, no reply yet. IT MIGHT be that damn fungus. The owner told me the dots initially appeared before he washed it..and they were BLACK (like the stupid fungus) and after washing noticed it left white spots....now gotta figure out what to do IF this is even the problem. Hope Gina writes me back lol
 
Ketch thanks for the kind words...



Wills

I have looked at the pictures and am not sure it is Artillery fungus. While it may appear to be (you said it seemed to be in the paint and you could not feel anything on the surface) typically artillery fungus is sticky to the touch, has a film, and when flattened can be smeared appearing white... it can be removed albeit with some difficulty.



I would suggest you look at the spots under a magnifying glass or loupe to see if the paint has been etched.. you will see small cracks or fissures. It is possible during transport some kind of caustic liquid dripped on the vehicle or while driving something splashed but it is in perfect circles very much like the shape of artillery fungus. I have seen this happen before on transported vehicles.



Suggest you ask him if he sprayed anything on the vehicle for wipe down and smell the contents of the bottle as it is possible something caustic was mis-labled.



Try to soak the area with some alcohol on paper towels then heat up the area with a hair dryer and see if it will come out of the paint.



If the spots only appeared at the show then someone or something in the environment must be the culprit.



The following is a link with pictures to artillery fungus info Articles | Car Pool Detail LLC
 
You sould look at this dots under a magnifier and see how they are shaped (wrinkled around the edges or smooth, also in the middle wrinkled or smooth) if it is wrinkled I would suspect tree sap or simillar chemical etching. If they are perfect round dots it could be the paint flaw that has been there. Take dulled pin and under the magnifier try to go over them to see if any part of white is coming off or clear is solid. I read your article about this car and realized it has been re cleared sanded and cut at least three times before you buffed it. Since we don't know how much clear is removed I assumed from the last pictured the clear is very soft now ( Swirled paint after Cali trip). This could be the indication of top clear of the paint is removed and the middle softer clear exposed. It is much easier for the paint not be able to resist such chemicals such as tree sap or accidental sprays.
 
I have seen similar spots associated with bird pooh on only a few cars in the past 27 months I have been detailing full time. I have had guesses, but my best guess is bird pee, that's what I have thought before. I just started color sanding, got brave to try it. Try color sanding them out!
 
MrWillsi3 said:
Initially that is what i thought. But wouldn't you be able to feel the spots if it was? Actually he did win Best Muscle Car in the show of about 300 cars lol...the spots are all over the car but in clustered sections like in the picture..so that part was good that even w/the spots..our detailing was so kick *** it still won an award lol.



IF it was acid, any solutions?
Click to expand...



I would try wet-sanding some of the spots with 2500-3000 grit and see if they started to disappear. That has to be some type of acid. The runner-up must have been very upset that his car did not win and he got fed up and blasted the car with a mist of acid.
 
mini1 said:
I would try wet-sanding some of the spots with 2500-3000 grit and see if they started to disappear. That has to be some type of acid. The runner-up must have been very upset that his car did not win and he got fed up and blasted the car with a mist of acid.
Click to expand...



lol I'd sure like to hope not. We have a date to go back out there in about 1 1/2 weeks. Try a few things on it and wet sand as a last option, we'll see how it goes...but in the mean time if anyone else has ideas of what to try im surely open to them
 
It may be a cheap paint job, if they don't wait long enough between applications little bubbles can form in the paint that show up after a while. Read about it never seen it first hand.
 
Based on your photos and inputs, and my experience with such "spots", I'm quite sure you're looking at some sort of Pinhole/Cratering - a paint defect.



A long time ago, I saw these white spots on a customer's re-finished car

At that time, the owner washed and clayed the car, and both of us never noticed any "pinholes"/cratering or any defects on the paintwork. Then, we tried the newly launched NXT on the hood. The hood was previously done using multiple rounds of S100 and already looked beautiful.





After a few days, I was shocked to see hundreds of such white spots on the hood.

As you experienced, it could not be removed by claying, solvents, APCs, machine buffing etc. Those spots felt perfectly smooth.





And then, a BASF paint technical guy had a look and confirmed it was due to a DEFECT in the re-finishing job.





Hurrying the re-finishing job resulted in hundreds of pinholes that were normally unnoticeable. However, when certain types of polishes/waxes etc were applied to the panel, those holes would slowly turn white. I thought APC could remove the whiteness.....WRONG.





At last, after un-productive wet sanding, the hood had to be re-finished again, by someone else.







Dude, your situation could be the same as mine.

As a last ditch resort.....use a cotton bud and wet ONE spot with acetone for 1 min.

If this still doesn't shift it......DAMx !!!!!!
 
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