wannafbody
wannafbody
it is too aggressive of a polish or is it pad selection or another factor?
what causes rotary holograms?
- Thread starter wannafbody
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Bill D
Hooked For Life
Technique and speed used also play a role
It can be many factors involved working in unison. As mentioned above such as speed, technique, dry buffing and steering with the head of the machine as opposed to using the trigger end is another facter. Too name a few. I just recently purchased the 9227 and while I am very happy with it, it will take some time to develop skills with it. Laying the pad flat causes the rotary to go one direction so you have to persuade it if you will to go other ways while not instilling holograms.
Keeping a clean work area and using the right techniques will help you minimize the possibility for instilling holograms back into the finish. Good luck,,,,,AR
Keeping a clean work area and using the right techniques will help you minimize the possibility for instilling holograms back into the finish. Good luck,,,,,AR
tripper_111
New member
Cause of holograms based on my experience:
1. not laying the pad flat -
the edge of the pad tends to induce holograms in a straight linear following the pattern of the movement of your pad.
2. too much pressure -
it generates heat even if you move the pad frequently, thus creates oval shape holograms as opposed to #1
3. too much product - (and dry-buffing)
pad should be primed in order to lubricate, but too much product may also induce holograms, especially with polishes that contains too much oil. it happens when the abrasives had already broken down, and you only have the oils left on the surface. as you continue to buff, (believing that the product needs to dry-buff, i.e. dusting), the friction as well as the heat generated by the pad (both polishing and cutting pad), will tend to dry the oils as if embedding it in the surface in an uneven manner, and thus you can notice uneven reflections depending on the angle you're looking in, that is what you see as holograms.
4. too much speed -
too much product coupled with too much speed even without pressure, tends to instill holograms which happens when you have broken the diminishing abrasives quickly without you noticing it. the heat of the pad also tends to soften outer layer of the finish and is easily prone to marring.
What I generally do:
I don't dry buff generally any polish with the rotary. (except the compounds)
In the past, (as can be manifested in my previous posts), I believe that the rotary (specifically 9227c), is the only machine I need because it can run even at speed 600rpm. So in effect, I thought it can perform the job of a less powerful machine like the PC7424 or any dual-action/orbital buffer for that matter.
But then again I was wrong. there are times that after using the rotary, I need to reach for the PC to do the finishing touches.
HTH.
1. not laying the pad flat -
the edge of the pad tends to induce holograms in a straight linear following the pattern of the movement of your pad.
2. too much pressure -
it generates heat even if you move the pad frequently, thus creates oval shape holograms as opposed to #1
3. too much product - (and dry-buffing)
pad should be primed in order to lubricate, but too much product may also induce holograms, especially with polishes that contains too much oil. it happens when the abrasives had already broken down, and you only have the oils left on the surface. as you continue to buff, (believing that the product needs to dry-buff, i.e. dusting), the friction as well as the heat generated by the pad (both polishing and cutting pad), will tend to dry the oils as if embedding it in the surface in an uneven manner, and thus you can notice uneven reflections depending on the angle you're looking in, that is what you see as holograms.
4. too much speed -
too much product coupled with too much speed even without pressure, tends to instill holograms which happens when you have broken the diminishing abrasives quickly without you noticing it. the heat of the pad also tends to soften outer layer of the finish and is easily prone to marring.
What I generally do:
I don't dry buff generally any polish with the rotary. (except the compounds)
In the past, (as can be manifested in my previous posts), I believe that the rotary (specifically 9227c), is the only machine I need because it can run even at speed 600rpm. So in effect, I thought it can perform the job of a less powerful machine like the PC7424 or any dual-action/orbital buffer for that matter.
But then again I was wrong. there are times that after using the rotary, I need to reach for the PC to do the finishing touches.
HTH.
Anthony O.
New member
They are caused by not properly finishing out the buffing. The finer the pad and product the less swirls you'll introduce.
Swirls are micro-scratches introduced from an aggressive pad and an abrasive product, usually this choice is overkill as most of todays paints respond well to a polishing pad, which is mild, and also a mild polishing creme. Follow this step with a finishing pad and a fine swirl remover (Optimum Polish and FP are my favorite combination) and that should take care of the majority of your paint issues.
Now obviously proper control of the rotary plays a huge part also but keeping the pad completely flat is not as big of an issue as some think, at least where swirls are concerned. Speed, pressure, clean pads, etc. all are factors.
Anthony
Swirls are micro-scratches introduced from an aggressive pad and an abrasive product, usually this choice is overkill as most of todays paints respond well to a polishing pad, which is mild, and also a mild polishing creme. Follow this step with a finishing pad and a fine swirl remover (Optimum Polish and FP are my favorite combination) and that should take care of the majority of your paint issues.
Now obviously proper control of the rotary plays a huge part also but keeping the pad completely flat is not as big of an issue as some think, at least where swirls are concerned. Speed, pressure, clean pads, etc. all are factors.
Anthony
I am having rotary problems myself because i am used to using the PC. I NEED to learn the Rotary because i know that there are some problems [Deep scratches, Time limitation because multiple passes needed] which cannot be solve with a PC.
I tried with my black Nissan yesterday using a rotary (LC Curved Yellow + IP). The holograms and swirls it produced its horrible. The paint condition improve a little when i use the PC to polish (White LC pad + FPII) but nothing to brag about because swirls are still there.
So when i read:
Does that mean by using the Rotary + Yellow Cutting Pad + IP, you cannot AVOID the swirls and hologram marks? I've tried making sure that the pad is not dry, there's enough product on the pad, Clean the Pad every panel, making sure i've applied enough pressure (Its very hard to determine how much is enough). Mastering the Rotary seems to be a hard thing to do for me.
I tried with my black Nissan yesterday using a rotary (LC Curved Yellow + IP). The holograms and swirls it produced its horrible. The paint condition improve a little when i use the PC to polish (White LC pad + FPII) but nothing to brag about because swirls are still there.
So when i read:
Anthony Orosco said:
Does that mean by using the Rotary + Yellow Cutting Pad + IP, you cannot AVOID the swirls and hologram marks? I've tried making sure that the pad is not dry, there's enough product on the pad, Clean the Pad every panel, making sure i've applied enough pressure (Its very hard to determine how much is enough). Mastering the Rotary seems to be a hard thing to do for me.
MichaelM said:
No, I was saying another factor is if you steer the rotary with the handle as opposed to the trigger end then yes you will cause holograms.
But, if you just use the handle end to come along for the ride and the trigger end to actually steer the machine it will go whichever way you tell it too. When polishing or compounding or whatever your doing with it, if you take your hand that's on the trigger end and move it right, the rotary will go right on it's own due to the head spinning. If you move it left, the rotary will go left on it's own. You don't drag it around the car. The machine does most of the work, you just guide it. IF you still don't understand, ask someone on here who can explain *** I'm talking about. Explaining sh*t is not one of my strong points,,,,,,AR
Anthony O.
New member
X-Trail said:
Basically....YES
Halograms, swirls are just going to be part of the experience when using a pad that is aggressive.If you use the IP with a LC white pad you'll notice that you have introduced far less swirls. Now use a LC black or blue finishing pad and IP and there should be even less.
Now use the LC finishing pads and FP and you should get close to having a swirl free finish. Do a side by side comparison of these various pads and products and you'll see what I am speaking of for yourself.
Airborne Ranger is correct when he states that steering with the handle is improper technique. I mentioned earlier in this thread that having a death grip on the handle and trying to control or manuver the buffer this way will just lead to trouble. It is something I did alot when I first started because I was so darned skeered:shocked I was going to mess the car up.
The next day my forearm and hand were really sore because I was so tense. Now, years later, I can buff without having my hand on that handle (depending on what I am buffing). Many detailers place their hand on the top spindle piece or use a 2 hand technique on the main body piece. Many detailers remove the handle altogether.
What it boils down to is that swirls are due to many factors and buffing is an art, hence as with any art form, practice, practice and praying never hurt either
Anthony
Accumulator
Well-known member
Anthony Orosco said:
I haven't used the rotary much since back in the day and now I usually only use it for spot-repairs. But even as a rank amateur (compared to people like Anthony) I find it easier to control without the handle. *Sometimes* I'll put it back on, but the vast majority of the time I use it with my left hand (lightly) on the top of the spindle housing. Certainly worth a try, even for those just starting out. It gives much more control than you might expect.
FWIW, I'd rather use a strong polish with a mild pad than the other way around. I was able to do some pretty major correction with my Makita right out of the box with no burns, holograms, or other problems and I sincerely doubt that I still "had the touch" after not using a rotary for over twenty years! User-friendly products and patience can go a long way...
Bill D
Hooked For Life
I have a lot of trouble controlling the rotary enough on vertical surfaces to not produce hologramming 
. I really could use some tips to get better at this as I won't dare touch the vertical surfaces of a "good car" as I stand now( and a Ceramiclear finish is going to be present in my family soon)
I was thinking maybe using the handle on the rotary while polishing vertical surfaces :nixweiss
. I really could use some tips to get better at this as I won't dare touch the vertical surfaces of a "good car" as I stand now( and a Ceramiclear finish is going to be present in my family soon)I was thinking maybe using the handle on the rotary while polishing vertical surfaces :nixweiss
Accumulator
Well-known member
Bill D said:
That's about the only time I *do* consider using it. On vertical surfaces I'll also hold it in generally weird ways (e.g., upside down, diagonally, etc.) if I have to, to exert the needed control without tensing up as Anthony spoke about. Sitting at the exact right height and being as comfortable as possible will help a lot too.
Anthony Orosco said:Basically....YES
If you use the IP with a LC white pad you'll notice that you have introduced far less swirls. Now use a LC black or blue finishing pad and IP and there should be even less.
Now use the LC finishing pads and FP and you should get close to having a swirl free finish. Do a side by side comparison of these various pads and products and you'll see what I am speaking of for yourself.
Airborne Ranger is correct when he states that steering with the handle is improper technique. I mentioned earlier in this thread that having a death grip on the handle and trying to control or manuver the buffer this way will just lead to trouble. It is something I did alot when I first started because I was so darned skeered:shocked I was going to mess the car up.
The next day my forearm and hand were really sore because I was so tense. Now, years later, I can buff without having my hand on that handle (depending on what I am buffing). Many detailers place their hand on the top spindle piece or use a 2 hand technique on the main body piece. Many detailers remove the handle altogether.
What it boils down to is that swirls are due to many factors and buffing is an art, hence as with any art form, practice, practice and praying never hurt either
Anthony
Sounds good Anthony. That clear things up for me.
SVR
Dream Machines
So anthony, if a modern car say 98 onwards needs cutting, I should use a polishing pad like edge classic green instead of a black or yellow cutting pad.
I prefer to hold the body of the rotary when doing doors but have trouble doing roofs and some hoods no matter which method I use
On all other panels I hold the handle but very gently. I used to hang on to the buffer like grim death. BIG MISTAKE
Wish I could fly over to the USA and spend a week being taught by you.
I am getting better, no burn marks as yet but it's just gonna take some time as I don't get enough time to practice with the rotary
Most of it is hand polishing.
My friends cobalt blue 2K metallic falcon, I used powergloss on and a meguiars red foam cutting pad.
Did a great job with no holograms and did all other steps by hand
Will try using a polishing pad with compounds before using a more aggressive pad
What speed is best when using powergloss and a foam cutting or polishing pad?
P.S. A section of my friends car is still scratchy after powergloss and six other steps
What can I do now. Is PG the strongest cutter on the market
I prefer to hold the body of the rotary when doing doors but have trouble doing roofs and some hoods no matter which method I use
On all other panels I hold the handle but very gently. I used to hang on to the buffer like grim death. BIG MISTAKE
Wish I could fly over to the USA and spend a week being taught by you.
I am getting better, no burn marks as yet but it's just gonna take some time as I don't get enough time to practice with the rotary
Most of it is hand polishing.
My friends cobalt blue 2K metallic falcon, I used powergloss on and a meguiars red foam cutting pad.
Did a great job with no holograms and did all other steps by hand
Will try using a polishing pad with compounds before using a more aggressive pad
What speed is best when using powergloss and a foam cutting or polishing pad?
P.S. A section of my friends car is still scratchy after powergloss and six other steps
What can I do now. Is PG the strongest cutter on the market
Anthony O.
New member
SVR said:
Yes. I would go with a polishing pad first before resorting to a cutting pad. In fact in many cases I'll use a wool polishing pad before a foma cutting pad. Lake Country has a great new wool/microfiber blend pad that seems to be real promising. No lint and very little swirls.
In regards to buffing on roof panels....get a step stool and stand on that so that you are over and above the roof. What happens many times is that as you stretch out to do the center areas you get off balance and the buffer starts hopping across the surface.
This can be controlled if you can place yourself, or center yourself, over the buffer and the work area.
There are many products more aggressive than PG but I have yet to come across a finish that does not respond to PG and either a wool pad or an orange power pad. I usually cut between 1500 and 1800 rpm's. I polish/swirl remove around 1200 to 1400 rpm's.
Hope this helps you out,
Anthony