Weasel Wording of the Decade (GM Chapt. 11)

S

Setec Astronomy

Well-known member
I got an email from GM (An important message from Troy Clarke, President, GM North America). I thought it was going to be about their bankruptcy, but I was wrong :rolleyes: :



"As you may know, GM is using an expedited, court-supervised process to accelerate the reinvention of our company."



It was a big long letter, but NOWHERE are the words bankruptcy or Chapter 11 mentioned. :confused:
 
Perferd said:
You sure it wasnt from the President and CEO of GM Obama?
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No, it wasn't. I happen to think it's outrageous that a bunch of crooked bankers (etc.) got hundreds of billions in bailout money yet manufacturing got a pittance, but without Gov't help GM would have been bankrupt months ago. These problems are due to the companies having truly gone bankrupt--ethically--long ago, not due to the Gov't. (at least not the short-term actions of the Gov't).



You can spin the whole scenario any way you want to, but if GM had been thinking with the big head instead of the little one maybe they would have already had a car like the Volt, Prius, or Insight. Or if the Gov't had just kept a little upward pressure on the fuel economy standards between 1985 and 2006, maybe the excellent large vehicle hybrid system would have been affordable and in all GM's large vehicles now. How a company that was farsighted enough to purchase EDS and Hughes Electronics in the 80's gets caught flatfooted (again) by oil prices and foreign competition is just a shame.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
You can spin the whole scenario any way you want to, but if GM had been thinking with the big head instead of the little one maybe they would have already had a car like the Volt, Prius, or Insight. Or if the Gov't had just kept a little upward pressure on the fuel economy standards between 1985 and 2006, maybe the excellent large vehicle hybrid system would have been affordable and in all GM's large vehicles now. How a company that was farsighted enough to purchase EDS and Hughes Electronics in the 80's gets caught flatfooted (again) by oil prices and foreign competition is just a shame.
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If the Volt had been released 2 years ago, it would not have saved GM. All the Hybrid SUVs and Trucks would not have saved GM. There is not a back log of Prius or Insight orders.



In the end, it seems to me that nagging perceptions of quality (rightly or wrongly), strong competitors, their cost structure and overall uninspired products hurt GM more than anything. Mixing in some hybrid offerings couldn't have fixed their issues.



By the way, I agree that the bankers got way too much money. I sell into the automotive industry, mostly to the office of finance, and grieve for what is happening to the auto industry. However, they way we've thrown money at problems without getting to the core of the issue is a recipe for disaster.
 
what a letter. thats insane. i have got to be honest though. im truely at a point where i really don't care anymore. truthfully think about it, they got there big bail out then go bankrupt. when do i get bailed out. ya know. i got a stimulas check. lmao thanks for a weeks groceries. lmfao i served this country and for what? we blow places up and rebuild them. we feed other countries and help everyone. yet we have tons of people here starving, homeless, can't afford health insurance and so on. im done rambling on this country went to ****. Thank god for socialisom!!!!! lol
 
There are many reasons why GM went into bankruptcy but it's hard to compete when the health care you are providing to your workers adds $1,100-$1,500 to every vehicle you sell.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
No, it wasn't. I happen to think it's outrageous that a bunch of crooked bankers (etc.) got hundreds of billions in bailout money yet manufacturing got a pittance, but without Gov't help GM would have been bankrupt months ago. These problems are due to the companies having truly gone bankrupt--ethically--long ago, not due to the Gov't. (at least not the short-term actions of the Gov't).



You can spin the whole scenario any way you want to, but if GM had been thinking with the big head instead of the little one maybe they would have already had a car like the Volt, Prius, or Insight. Or if the Gov't had just kept a little upward pressure on the fuel economy standards between 1985 and 2006, maybe the excellent large vehicle hybrid system would have been affordable and in all GM's large vehicles now. How a company that was farsighted enough to purchase EDS and Hughes Electronics in the 80's gets caught flatfooted (again) by oil prices and foreign competition is just a shame.
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They got caught as flatfooted as Toyota. Toyota sunk billions into the full size pickup and SUV market, only to see that market shrink, and their billion dollar truck plant in San Antonio still only run on one shift - half capacity. Then Toyota goes and builds a new plant in Mississippi to build midsize SUV's, the Highlander, only to see that market tank as well. So, halfway through the construction process, Toyota changes their mind, and decides that Mississippi will build Prius's. Then oil prices plummet, and now all the tooling orders are canceled, the quotes for that tooling is out-of-date, and the building sits empty. Then just as the Prius starts FINALLY paying it's own way and making money, Toyota brings out a third generation Prius with even more hi-tech content, Honda brings out a less expensive Insight, forcing Toyota to price match, and voila! Prius is a corporate money pit. Again.



The auto industry is part marketing research, part guessing game, and a big part luck. Timing can be everything, and last years credit market crash precipitated much of the current situation for the whole auto industry, with everyone, including Toyota and Honda, losing billions of dollars. In fact, Toyota's current cash burn is higher than GM's was at their worse month in the last six month. GM built, from 1985 to 2006, closer to what the majority of the market wanted - bigger vehicles and SUV's. A lot of the product had bad timing in coming out, bad quality in some cases, but bottom line, they followed the consumer trends to expensive SUV's and trucks. So did Toyota. So did Mercedes. So did Nissan. So did BMW.



And the reason the government didn't keep CAFE pressure up was that the majority of people objected. Both in their buying habits and in their voting habits. Bottom line.



And I'm with you - I think it's a shame that manufacturing gets treated like the red headed step child.
 
Len_A said:
And the reason the government didn't keep CAFE pressure up was that the majority of people objected. Both in their buying habits and in their voting habits. Bottom line.
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People, companies, governments, CAN do the right thing. It's not the easiest thing to do. I tried, until I couldn't buy any more American machines, until there were no small American hatchbacks and I had to buy a Japanese one. You can call it nanny-statism if you want, but it was only a matter of time until oil prices went up, and it's only a matter of time until they go up again (already are). If the individual car companies couldn't do the right thing because their competition wouldn't, it was up to the government to level the playing thing and make them all do the right thing.



Anyway, I didn't really want to make this thread into a debate on who failed or didn't and why...I just couldn't believe the spin...like us GM owners don't read the paper...
 
Setec Astronomy said:
Anyway, I didn't really want to make this thread into a debate on who failed or didn't and why...I just couldn't believe the spin...like us GM owners don't read the paper...
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Like I said before, it's just P.R. spin (or maybe the initials should be "B.S."). I've been in market and sales for over two and a half decades (until this very long period of unemployment) and I would be shocked if they used a works like "bankruptcy" in any kind of communication with customers. It's just too negative, even if you GM owners read the paper.
 
BTW, I think in this particular instance, if everybody had done the right thing, then everyone could have had their cake and eaten it, too. The GM heavy-vehicle hybrid system is reportedly very good, and seems to be pretty transparent. The upside is 50% better city mileage, the downside is a lot of extra cost. I think in this case if it had been managed right, volume would have brought the cost down into an effective range.



Heck, we got some new A/C units at work that were high efficiency...we got a rebate from the power company that was substantially the cost difference between the std. and hi-efficiency...so we got the high efficiency upgrade for free, we save electricity for the life of the equipment, the power company doesn't have to build a new plant...seems pretty win-win to me.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
BTW, I think in this particular instance, if everybody had done the right thing, then everyone could have had their cake and eaten it, too. The GM heavy-vehicle hybrid system is reportedly very good, and seems to be pretty transparent. The upside is 50% better city mileage, the downside is a lot of extra cost. I think in this case if it had been managed right, volume would have brought the cost down into an effective range.



Heck, we got some new A/C units at work that were high efficiency...we got a rebate from the power company that was substantially the cost difference between the std. and hi-efficiency...so we got the high efficiency upgrade for free, we save electricity for the life of the equipment, the power company doesn't have to build a new plant...seems pretty win-win to me.
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I tend to agree. And there's also, speaking of the power companies, the fact that they waste as much as two thirds of the energy, in any unit of fuel, as waste heat, and resist like hell any attempt to get them to improve their efficiency. Even when faced with the fact that the technology is off the shelf, and at least two countries, Japan and Denmark, do this wast heat energy recovery as a matter of course.



Here's something for you to read: Find greatest energy savings in power production industry



Keep in mind the author used to be a power industry executive. Enjoy.



BTW, I used to call on the power industry, and one of my friends, and a former engineering customer at DTE Energy (Detroit Edison), verified everything this guy says is possible.
 
Ha...I was talking to someone who told me that he likes to shake up greenies at cocktail parties by telling them if they are really "green" they support nuclear power, right? Because it's the only proven capacity power source that uses no non-renewables, creates no CO2 or greenhouse gases, pollutants, etc. And don't get me started about the waste everywhere...
 
Setec Astronomy said:
Ha...I was talking to someone who told me that he likes to shake up greenies at cocktail parties by telling them if they are really "green" they support nuclear power, right? Because it's the only proven capacity power source that uses no non-renewables, creates no CO2 or greenhouse gases, pollutants, etc. And don't get me started about the waste everywhere...
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I love jerking their chains as well. Tell your friend to remind them that countries like France get most of their electricity from nuclear. That really drives the greenie weenies crazy.
 
He used to work in the industry, so he knows all the stats. It was a pretty interesting discussion...those countries had coherent energy policies and standards which allowed them to be successful at it.



PS I'd like to consider myself a pragmatist on this...I'm all for reducing (energy) waste, so in the same way you pointed out that power plants don't recover their waste heat, if we can recover the braking energy of 100 million cars...it's kind of like emissions controls, 35 years ago everyone thought that would destroy cars as we know them, that they would be too expensive, have no power, crappy driveability...but we engineered our way past that. You never hear anyone say "boy, this 500 HP really sucks in my Corvette because of the smog gear" or "I could afford to buy a new car if only they didn't have emission controls" or "OMG, I have to use UNleaded gas???" (how many young Autopians don't rememer that gas used to have lead in it ;) ). Anyway, a will to do it and the economy of scale are important factors, and it looks to me that hybrid systems that are transparent to the end user and affordable are just about here--there was an article about the new Lexus big SUV-h in the paper here last week.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
He used to work in the industry, so he knows all the stats. It was a pretty interesting discussion...those countries had coherent energy policies and standards which allowed them to be successful at it.



PS I'd like to consider myself a pragmatist on this...I'm all for reducing (energy) waste, so in the same way you pointed out that power plants don't recover their waste heat, if we can recover the braking energy of 100 million cars...it's kind of like emissions controls, 35 years ago everyone thought that would destroy cars as we know them, that they would be too expensive, have no power, crappy driveability...but we engineered our way past that. You never hear anyone say "boy, this 500 HP really sucks in my Corvette because of the smog gear" or "I could afford to buy a new car if only they didn't have emission controls" or "OMG, I have to use UNleaded gas???" (how many young Autopians don't rememer that gas used to have lead in it ;) ). Anyway, a will to do it and the economy of scale are important factors, and it looks to me that hybrid systems that are transparent to the end user and affordable are just about here--there was an article about the new Lexus big SUV-h in the paper here last week.
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When I called on the power generation industry, what drove me crazy was that they thought nothing of wasting electricity, because, don't ya know, they make tons of it.



I question the benefits of hybrids, because of several factors. One, whether we're talking about lithium ion or nickle metal hydride batteries, we're talking about swapping foreign oil for either foreign batteries, or foreign rare metals.



Secondly, even if economies of scale bring the costs down for hybrids, you're still increasing the complexity of the car or truck, with extra components over a regular gas or diesel vehicle. Hybrid advocates can't seem to grasp the concept that you're using extra energy to make the electric motor, the battery, and the high voltage wiring (which itself is a huge extra component). Then you're using more energy shipping it to the assembly plant. Then you're using extra energy in the plant, in extra material handling and robotics to handle integrating those parts into the assembly process.



Environmental benefits, to society, are also highly questionable when the toxic emissions and hazardous waste production of the battery and high voltage wiring is taken into consideration.
 
I am not an expert and I don't drive a Hybrid -so don't lynch me for saying this- but I think *for some* driving a Hybrid is more like casting a vote or making a statement for: wanting more efficient and environmentally friendly options.



In other words person X bought a Toyota Prius not because it actually was the most environmentally sound option but because it SAYS it is -and therefore is a vote, telling manufactures move that direction.



Of course that is just my opinion, I could be wrong.
 
I'm sorry, my mother's (non-hybrid) Buick, which was built in Canada, has wheels from China, and suspension arms from South Korea, and who knows how many other imported parts. How about for her next car, if it's a hybrid, we make the wheels and suspension arms here, so we can make up for the foreign metals in the battery? For that matter, why don't we make the batteries here? Let's take one of those idled GM plants and make batteries for the Volt.



I guess you can make an argument for or against anything. Sure, if a hybrid vehicle has more parts, it's going to (perhaps) take more energy to manufacture it. But any car has parts...which take energy to manufacture, so why don't we stop making new cars? And just fix the old ones? Or stop driving? That would save TONS of energy.



I notice you didn't argue that my high-efficiency air conditioners required more parts or more energy to produce, negating their benefit. And I bet it's going to take a lot of energy (and money) to build a nuclear power plant, especially today. So I guess if it takes 10 or 20 or 30 years to make a profit, it's not worth doing? Or why bother buying a house...it's going to take SO long to pay off that mortgage...

See? You can make an argument for or against anything. I guess GM's description of their current financial situation was fine...they were just making an argument FOR it.
 
HappyWax said:
I am not an expert and I don't drive a Hybrid -so don't lynch me for saying this- but I think *for some* driving a Hybrid is more like casting a vote or making a statement for: wanting more efficient and environmentally friendly options.



In other words person X bought a Toyota Prius not because it actually was the most environmentally sound option but because it SAYS it is -and therefore is a vote, telling manufactures move that direction.
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And so are the knee-jerk reactions in the other direction. Aren't many vehicle purchases statements? Like "I have gobs of money, so I bought this vehicle to show everyone" or "I put this fart-can exhaust on my car to prove how much I like to get pulled over" or "I have a penis of inferior size, so I bought this vehicle to compensate".



How come only a Prius gets held to this litmus standard? I don't hear anybody complaining about how their new HD tv isn't really more environmentally friendly than their old CRT that used twice as much electricity because of blah blah blah or how people shouldn't get new cell phones because the batteries (not to mention the phones) come from a foreign country...I'd be willing to bet that the amount of cell phone and other mobile device (PDA, laptop, bluetooth) batteries far exceeds what is manufactured/disposed of for hybrid cars right now...where is the hue and cry over that?
 
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