Wax Guru Question

ptim

New member
2 weeks ago, I put just 1 coat of Zaino Z-2 on my car, the next day it rained, there was a nice group of tight beads all over the car. This past week I put a coat of Megs #80 toppped with Megs #16, the next day it rained, it didnt have same type of beading, they were not as tight and uniformed as the Z-2. Does anyone have a good theory on this.:confused:
 
ptim said:
2 weeks ago, I put just 1 coat of Zaino Z-2 on my car, the next day it rained, there was a nice group of tight beads all over the car. This past week I put a coat of Megs #80 toppped with Megs #16, the next day it rained, it didnt have same type of beading, they were not as tight and uniformed as the Z-2. Does anyone have a good theory on this.:confused:



The only theory is that both prodcuts are comprised of different components and react diferently to water. Beading isn't a sign of protection or quality of a product. Some products are even designed to promote sheeting, which allows the water to run off.:)
 
Off hand, I'd just say that "different products bead differently". But for me, #16 always gives uniform, tight beads, so I dunno...
 
Beading is a result of surface tension.



Waxes/sealants contain different ingredients in different proportions, some of which create surface tension.



This can be altered by the manufacturer to create a different result.



Beading looks wonderful, but is bad for paint. Sheeting is better,but looks less impressive to the casual observer.



The only real positive about beading, IMO, is that it visually confirms the protection is still there. Some products degrade in beading earlier than the protection. All that means is that the *surface tension components* have diminished, although the *protective components* are still there.
 
Accumulator said:
Off hand, I'd just say that "different products bead differently". But for me, #16 always gives uniform, tight beads, so I dunno...



Agreed. In fact, when I was over at my brother's this weekend his
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sprinklers came on and sprayed all over about half of my car about a week after I had topped NXT x 2 with #16. The beads were practically a work of art! Tight and round. I admired them for a second or two then moved my car and washed it so I wouldn't get any hard water spotting.
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Adherence:

Carnauba wax when applied to a surface will not adhere properly on its own, miscible oils are added to enable it to spread and adhere evenly to the surface. Polymer sealants, natural and synthetic waxes initially adhere by surface tension; the balance of the adherence process is that it works its way via the carrier system (solvent and / or oils) into the microscopic gaps and valleys of the paint film surface thereby creating a â€Ëœmechanicalâ€â„¢ anchor.



Polymers used in sealants need a molecular (paint) surface to catatonically bond to; they don't do well when asked to bond to metal to provide protection, they initially adhere by surface tension and then after a cross-linking period (the solvents /oils in the carrier system vaporize (outgas) after which the polymers form a molecular bond to the paint. This process usually requires 12-24 hours, which are time and temperature and / or humidity dependent.



Usually a polymer will produce â€Ëœtighterâ€â„¢ beads due to its molecular bond with the paint surface. A wax that contains polymer will exhibit somewhat â€Ëœtightâ€â„¢ beading and a wax less is than either.

This will vary by the type / and percentage of polymers present.

JonM



Quote: Beading looks wonderful, but is bad for paint.

Iâ€â„¢m not sure I understand this?
 
TOGWT...it's better for water to sheet off...rather than bead and remain on the surface. The thinking is that the beads leave behind spots easier, and also act like little magnifiers in the sun to help bake in the spot.
 
TOGWT,



Let me see if I understand this correctly: if water beading is only a sign of suface tension, would the speed at which the water "runs" off the paint (like when your rinsing a car after soaping it up) be a good sign of when to apply another coat?



I've noticed that no matter what kind of sealant/wax i use, the water tends to "cling" to the surface after three or four washes. I've tried this with different soaps, so I can't say that it is soap residue that is causing it. I also use S&W after rinsing to minimize water spotting.



Your thoughts?
 
TOGWT said:
Adherence:

Carnauba wax when applied to a surface will not adhere properly on its own, miscible oils are added to enable it to spread and adhere evenly to the surface. Polymer sealants, natural and synthetic waxes initially adhere by surface tension; the balance of the adherence process is that it works its way via the carrier system (solvent and / or oils) into the microscopic gaps and valleys of the paint film surface thereby creating a â€Ëœmechanicalâ€â„¢ anchor.



Polymers used in sealants need a molecular (paint) surface to catatonically bond to; they don't do well when asked to bond to metal to provide protection, they initially adhere by surface tension and then after a cross-linking period (the solvents /oils in the carrier system vaporize (outgas) after which the polymers form a molecular bond to the paint. This process usually requires 12-24 hours, which are time and temperature and / or humidity dependent.



Usually a polymer will produce â€Ëœtighterâ€â„¢ beads due to its molecular bond with the paint surface. A wax that contains polymer will exhibit somewhat â€Ëœtightâ€â„¢ beading and a wax less is than either.

This will vary by the type / and percentage of polymers present.

JonM

-------------------------------------------------------------------



A few things----------------->



1. It is the solvents and carrier system in a Carnuba wax formuation that enable it to properly adhere to a surface . The oils are present mostly for shine and water beading properties.



2. Surface tension has little to do with bonding. It is a term used to mostly to characterize a property in liquids (not solids)



3. In a polymer product, there is no chemical bond with the paint. What is a catatonical bond? I've heard of the term cationical before but never catatonical. Again these terms suggest a bonding where a transfer of electroncs is present which is not the case here. Think of a physical bond....glue hardening,etc.



4. Polymers in sealants typically bond well to any non-pourous surface.



5. Water beading in wax products will differ with the amount and types of waxes used in the formulation, and of course the oils.



Examples...carnuba wax doesn't bead, but polyethylene wax does. A product that puts a film of oil on the car will bead even if no wax is present.
 
Yeah, I think catatonically is not the right word.



Main Entry: 1cata·ton·ic

Pronunciation: "kat-&-'tän-ik

Function: adjective

: of, relating to, being, or affected by schizophrenia characterized especially by a marked psychomotor disturbance that may involve stupor or mutism, negativism, rigidity, purposeless excitement, and inappropriate or bizarre posturing â€â€�cata·ton·i·cal·ly /-i-k(&-)lE/ adverb
 
1. It is the solvents and carrier system in a Carnauba wax formulation that enable it to properly adhere to a surface. The oils are present mostly for shine and water beading properties.

[Then does the wax lose its bond when the solvents evaporate?]



2. Surface tension has little to do with bonding. It is a term used to mostly to characterize a property in liquids (not solids)

[Iâ€â„¢ve always considered a paste wax to have the characteristics of a semi-solid not a solid. How does wax adhere to a surface if not by surface tension?]



3. In a polymer product, there is no chemical bond with the paint. [I thought a molecular bond was a chemical type bond]



What is a catatonical bond? I've heard of the term cationical before but never catatonical. Again these terms suggest a bonding where a transfer of electroncs is present which is not the case here. Think of a physical bond....glue hardening,etc.

[So what youâ€â„¢re saying is that a polymer has no interaction with the paint surface?]



4. Polymers in sealants typically bond well to any non-pourous surface. [How is this bond formed?]



5. Water beading in wax products will differ with the amount and types of waxes used in the formulation, and of course the oils. [We are of the same opinion as to wax beading, and I take your point about the amount of oils present]



Examples...carnuba wax doesn't bead, but polyethylene wax does. A product that puts a film of oil on the car will bead even if no wax is present.

[I always thought that wax when exposed to water; swells and closes its pores, which along with surface tension, causes `water beading'.]
 
RIC said:
Yeah, I think catatonically is not the right word.



Main Entry: 1cata·ton·ic

Pronunciation: "kat-&-'tän-ik

Function: adjective

: of, relating to, being, or affected by schizophrenia characterized especially by a marked psychomotor disturbance that may involve stupor or mutism, negativism, rigidity, purposeless excitement, and inappropriate or bizarre posturing â€â€�cata·ton·i·cal·ly /-i-k(&-)lE/ adverb



You are right, but it oftens applies to me -disturbance that may involve stupor or mutism, negativism, rigidity, purposeless excitement, and inappropriate or bizarre posturing LOL
 
TOGWT said:
1. It is the solvents and carrier system in a Carnauba wax formulation that enable it to properly adhere to a surface. The oils are present mostly for shine and water beading properties.

[Then does the wax lose its bond when the solvents evaporate?]



2. Surface tension has little to do with bonding. It is a term used to mostly to characterize a property in liquids (not solids)

[Iâ€â„¢ve always considered a paste wax to have the characteristics of a semi-solid not a solid. How does wax adhere to a surface if not by surface tension?]



3. In a polymer product, there is no chemical bond with the paint. [I thought a molecular bond was a chemical type bond]



What is a catatonical bond? I've heard of the term cationical before but never catatonical. Again these terms suggest a bonding where a transfer of electroncs is present which is not the case here. Think of a physical bond....glue hardening,etc.

[So what youâ€â„¢re saying is that a polymer has no interaction with the paint surface?]



4. Polymers in sealants typically bond well to any non-pourous surface. [How is this bond formed?]



5. Water beading in wax products will differ with the amount and types of waxes used in the formulation, and of course the oils. [We are of the same opinion as to wax beading, and I take your point about the amount of oils present]



Examples...carnuba wax doesn't bead, but polyethylene wax does. A product that puts a film of oil on the car will bead even if no wax is present.

[I always thought that wax when exposed to water; swells and closes its pores, which along with surface tension, causes `water beading'.]



1. The solvents don't really contribute to any bonding, but they aid in "setting it up." Think of dipping your finger into some hot candlewax....as it hardens it will coat your finger and harden. a wax works in a similiar way, the solvents keep the formula fluid in order to be spread around on a surface uniformly.



2. It has more to do with viscosity. As soon as the liquid formulation hits the paint surface the solvents begin to evaporate and as this happens the product's viscosity (resistance to flow) is increased so it doesn't roll off your car while drying.



3. A Molecular bond points towards a chemical bond, and has become a strong marketing tool in this industry. In actuality, the surface of the paint does not change, no electrons are shared or transferred, and what we are seeing is more of a physical bond.



3+4 Correct, there is not much interaction with the paint surface per say on a chemical basis. Again, think of other thin film products, glue, paint, etc. Now the condition and properties of the paint surface will affect the nature of the physical bond. Think sanding before painting to roughen up a surface for a better bite. Also the reason why most products contain a light polish or abrasive......



5. Some waxes exhibit water beading and are added to formulations.....bee's wax, parrafin wax, polyethylene wax, but carnuba in it's natural state is actually horrible at water beading.
 
DETAILKING-Thank you for the information and your insights, some of which are contrary to what Iâ€â„¢ve seen published before (which in no way makes them wrong, only differentâ€Â¦/

JonM
 
These are some of the Idea's that I thought were most informative in this thread:





/Polymers are a plastic type. I think the word "bonding" is favorable to the word "adhesion" when promoting a product. Plastic is elastic as well as having adhesive qualities. Physical descriptions are problematic due to the scientific definitions involved... After all, as you are likely aware, Glass is a liquid. :cool:



/Molecular bonding (crosslinking) does take place within the sealant layer. When we seal our paint ,we are putting a plastic layer over the surface. There are many types of plastic substances in various sealants we all use and respect. I am uncertain what term can be the most accurate to describe the inter-relationship between the sealant and the paint... I like the word "adhesion" best. :nixweiss



/Catatonic Bond? Inert, nonreactive, sounds like saying"it just sits there and does no damage to the paint, maybe thats the meaning. Not exactly a negative thing... sealants just sitting there passively, not changing either in themselves and most important, not the paint surface. This might be an example of attempted communication of a concept, IMHO. :xyxthumbs



/Surface tension is the reaction within the water droplet. All beading means is that the water surface tension holds the droplet in a compact configuration.... what it does not mean is that the absence of the phenomenon indicates the protective nature of the surface coating is gone. Dirt breaks down surface tension mechanically. (allows water to soak in and wander in random patterns) Many factors can cause loss of surface tension without causing any harm whatsoever in the protective material. :bounce



/wax forms a mechanical "bond" with paint. The wax can be viewed as being in a "wet"state until the solvent "wetting" agents evaporate. This leaves a strata of deposited wax and other materials.



/paste wax is just a thicker form of liquid wax. Just a different consistency, not nessesarily even more or less solvents. Some wax products use an emulsion to keep more liquid without adding solvents which, in high concentrations could remove the underlying wax too rapidly to allow the "melting" together of the wax" strata. :bounce



/ The viscosity of the previous layer requires more solvent to significantly melt away than the next applied wax layer can contain.... viscosity is an interesting way to explain layering, and is valid. Interesting how these things are balanced isnt it? :cool:



I notice we are all in basic agreement, it is just the jargon/terminology plus marketing inventiveness which makes it dificult to sometimes see that we understand each other :xyxthumbs :xyxthumbs :xyxthumbs
 
also some resin based products do not bead water very well- Forrest from Mothers said in regards to the old Reflections formula that it protected for months after the beading stopped. In fact they took Reflections and added carnauba (for beading) and created Hot Wheels Wax. Many good looking products don't bead small tight rain drops (TC3, Megs #26). Compare the beading of Colorx(extremely small) and #26(much larger) and you will realize that bead size is NO indication of the amount of "wax" on the surface of your car or its durability- regardless of WHO says otherwise
 
mochamanz- very positive comments and a concise summary / explanation of the terminology, Thank you.

JonM
 
atticdog said:
what products are fomulated for sheeting?



Klasse sheets water according to GuruReports. I haven't used the twins yet, so I don't know for sure. I have used Blackfire and FMJ and they both sheet water. Gold Class supposedly sheets water too, but that must be the old formula, because I put the new version on my wife's car and it just beads water. As far as I know, any wax with carnauba will not sheet water because of their hydroscopic nature.
 
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