Water softener question

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imported_Mighty HD1

New member
Is it safe to get a water softener if my house has galvanized pipe? The water here is pretty hard and would like to ease it up a bit, especially for the cars.



Also, does it cause the cars to rust prematurely?
 
I don't *think* it will cause a problem with the pipes, my dad's place had very old plumbing (pre-WWII) and he never had any trouble.



I haven't had any rust problems, and my Jag would probably let me know in a hurry ;) But just to be on the safe side, I run Potassium Chloride instead of salt (sodium chloride) in the one that supplies the garage. The same places that sell "softener salt" usually have the Potassium Chloride stuff, under a name like "Nature's Alternative" or something like that.



IMO you'll love having a softener. We'd never be without one. I like the ones where you can adjust how they operate, to give a long "rinse cycle", for instance.
 
So I could use Potassium Chloride instead of salt eh?



My main worry is that the galvanized pipes would rust. Every few months we have to clean-out the screw-on water things on all the faucets. They all get small pieces of rust in them, thats why rust was my concern.
 
Yeah, we're always cleaning out our aerators too, always some kind of sediment building up in there; if it isn't rust it's something else.



IMO you oughta talk to a (good and honest) plumbing contractor. But I'm pretty sure they're gonna recommend the softener (or "conditioner" as they call 'em).
 
Accumulator said:
But I'm pretty sure they're gonna recommend the softener (or "conditioner" as they call 'em).
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Conditioner is a better term for the action, since the water isn't truly softer after being run through one of these. One salt swapped out for another (potassium/sodium chloride for calcium chloride) remains water with dissolved solids.



Now, whether they deposit on the paint is another matter, which is why they work to a great extent.
 
lucid696 said:
One salt swapped out for another (potassium/sodium chloride for calcium chloride) remains water with dissolved solids...
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Very true. There appears to be a huge difference in concentration of the solids though. I'd expected the conditioned water in the house (regular "softener salt") to be literal murder on our houseplants, but it's been nearly 20 years and the plants are still fine.



When it comes to deposits, the solids from the conditioner *do* act quite different, as you pointed out:



Now, whether they deposit on the paint is another matter, which is why they work to a great extent.
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Besides making for cleaner bathrooms in the house and fewer aerator clean-outs, when it comes to use in a detailing garage, I can say from first hand experience that the conditioners *do* make a huge difference. It's not like you don't get *any* waterspots, but between the better cleaning and the greatly *reduced* spotting, they're really great IMO. And any spotting from the conditioned water wipes off *much* easier.
 
I agree with your anecdotal results, I am just saying that truly soft water is devoid of dissolved solids--an important distinction if you want to know what is going on with your water...



Many people say they have softened water, but it really isn't any softer than how they got it, from a chemical perspective. I guess that was my whole point--not terribly germane to the subject at hand, just a personal rant from dealing with many over the years.
 
lucid696- Heh heh, you'll never get any [stuff] from me over being precise about things ;) The world would be a better place if people were more careful about using words correctly. Enough *incorrect* usage and it seems the definitions get changed to reflect the popular opinions :rolleyes:
 
Very good advice guys. Hopefully in the next few weeks I can look into getting one. The water tastes like "metal" or if you drink it cold with ice, it tastes like a copper penny in your mouth. Yuck!



I've mastered speed-drying though!
 
from my understanding, and i could be wrong, the salt isnt added to the water, the salt is used to make a brine that in turn is injected into the mineral bed inside of the conditoner, softener, to release the * solids * or hardness as its called that are collected in the mineral bed, it is injected soaks and is back flushed down the drain minute traces of salt may remain but that is normally why the regeneration process is done in the middle of the night when household water is not being used so the brine doesnt get into the pipes that go to feed the house or water heater, if anyone tastes salt in their water with a water softener get it checked it most likely isnt working correctly
 
Well, you are partially correct. The process involves trading out the Ca++ and the Mg++ ions and exchanging them with Na+ ions. All of which bond to Cl- ions.



During the regeneration process, a heavy brine solution (loaded with Na++ ions) is forced through the exchanger, displacing the calcium and magnesium ions, washing them down the drain. Sodium ions are replaced in the medium.



This is what a "water softener" does--simply an ion exchange unit. There are deionizers that serve to strip out ions with no replacement, but these are typically not used in home systems and are not conditioners, but purifiers. They are expensive, and the process for regeneration involves strong acids such as HCl.



Reverse osmosis systems are the next step up, forcing water against a semi-permeable membrane--stripping out most contaminants. After this comes distillation--lots of fun to do in the household!
 
FWIW, Scottlee's explanation was how I originally understood it and lucid969's explanation is how it was most recently explained to me.



Much of the correctly expressed info is basically transparent to the end user. If you taste salty water, yeah, *generally* your conditioner/softener needs servicing. But some people, who are *extremely* sensitive to "salt", can always taste it in "softened" water. And some people's (health-related) sensitivity to sodium is the reason they market the Potassium Chloride softener-salt substitute.



Most softeners are run at night so you don't use/fill your water heater with "hard" water. Every conditioner I've ever had was bypassed automatically when regenerating.



Not to get OT, but RO water is great for drinking, though the process wastes an awful lot of water.
 
Accumulator said:
Not to get OT, but RO water is great for drinking, though the process wastes an awful lot of water.
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I don't think that's off topic at all...I love RO water, and yeah, it does waste a lot of water, but if you set it up right, you can redirect it to the garden, where it will be appreciated!



Gotta be careful with the RO water when drinking, though--RO and distillation take so much out of the water (like chlorine) that it becomes a bacterial breeding ground. Most aftermarket systems come with a pressurized reservoir (2-10 gallons) that is sterilized just before use, and so is safe for drinking, but you still would be wise to make sure things are clean when using the RO.



It does make great coffee, btw.



Perhaps one day, I'll set up an RO system with a monster reservoir to wash the car with. :D
 
Are you sure you have hard water? A metallic taste and rust problems would be more associated with a Corrosion (low pH) situation.



Hard water tends to to precipitate minerals and metals (the scale thats left behind when it evaporates).



A low pH tends to to dissolve minerals and metals (metallic taste, stained fixtures, pinhole leaks in plumbing.
 
I'm SURE it's hard water. The shower has to be wiped down almost every time, you can see the spots on the paint if you let it dry, etc. It's hard....super hard, I'm suprised we can drink it..lol



Lucid---you know your stuff man. Wow!



So if water sotener's work at night, how does it work during the day when you turn on your regular cold water faucet? Does it have a storage tank that the water sits in?
 
Lucid696- Our RO units are always mounted somewhere that precludes putting the waste water to use :(



Heh heh, after 20+ years of drinking RO water (and using it for coffee) I like it better than any of the bottled stuff.



Mighty HD said:
So if water sotener's work at night, how does it work during the day when you turn on your regular cold water faucet? Does it have a storage tank that the water sits in?
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Lucid would explain this more, well, lucidly than I will, but in over-simplified layman's terms, the conditioner always "conditions" the water *except* for when it's "regenerating". The water you use during the day gets run through the conditioner which is how it gets treated. The regeneration is what it does at night, when it cleans itself and gets ready to treat the next day's water.
 
Mighty HD said:
Lucid---you know your stuff man. Wow!
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Thanks for the compliments--I'm no expert, though--I just have spent many years in the saltwater aquarium business where water purification is pretty much a pillar of how to keep them successfully.



As for how it works day vs. night, Accumulator said it best--it regenerates at night, and operates normally during the day. That bin you fill with salt is where the regenerator draws from to make the brine.



When I used to keep a lot of SW tanks going, I had a monster RO system going, but I sold it off when I exited the business--wish I kept that last part--having very pure water isn't always necessary, but there are several times when you just need a bit of it...
 
Mighty HD said:
Is it safe to get a water softener if my house has galvanized pipe? The water here is pretty hard and would like to ease it up a bit, especially for the cars.



Also, does it cause the cars to rust prematurely?
Click to expand...



I'm not sure if this is directly applicable to your question, but as far as hard water problems when washing/drying cars is concerned here was my situation...



I have well water (pretty hard water) at my house and I was having the same problem you are when I went to dry my car. We have solar salt filtration for all water inside the house, but the outside water sources are almost directly from the well. Thus, I'd always get nasty white spots on the car when they dried, no matter how fast I dried it.



Now the problem with that is, let's say you do get all the water dried off before it turns into that chalky white spot (I tried, it's darn near impossible). You're still leaving hard minerals on the surface of your paint, right before you polish/seal/wax. Not the best situation at all. So basically, I did a LOT of seaching (both here and on the internet) and found something that looked like it would work perfectly.



I wanted an in-line hose filter that I could quickly connect and disconnect from the hose. Well, I found it:



ghclear.jpg


Pure Water Gazette's In-Line Hose Filters (ask for Gene Franks; great guy)



It basically works just like in-home water filtration systems (if you have well water). It can be re-charged (by submerging the filter in a vat of solar salt and pure water for 24 hours) when necessary (they claim after 90 gallons, though mine is still working like a champ after numerous washes).



It works very, very well and I have NEVER seen any white, chalky residue left over after washing and drying since I've been using this filter. I would buy it again in a heartbeat and I really think that it's one of the best investments I've made yet for my detailing. Can't beat the price either ($50) :bounce



I highly suggest this filter. Let me know what you think and I hope this helps!! :xyxthumbs



P.S. Here's a picture of how another Autopia member (n2_space) has it set up:



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