Ultrafina vs. Menz PO85RD (Again)

SuperBee364

SuperBee364

New member
Yesterday, I did a 2002 BMW 300 series sedan. He's a repeat customer from last year who actually listened to the car wash advice I gave him; he only used touchless automatics to wash his car ever since I polished it. That was a year ago. Imagine how surprised I was when the car showed up with nary a swirl to be found.



Since I wasn't going to have to burn a bunch of time correcting the paint, this was the perfect opportunity to really jewel the paint and match Ultrafina up against PO85RD. Especially since BMW clear is relatively soft... it's just the right softness. Not too soft to mar too easily, but soft enough to be very easy to correct and/or jewel.



So I did a quick once-over with purple foamed wool and SIP for general correction. I then followed this with Ultrafina on a white LC foam. It was just amazing how well Ultrafina worked on this clear coat. Four passes at 1500 RPM, and the Ultrafina was *done*. You could literally *watch* the gloss come up with each pass. It's counterproductive to keep working it after four passes. It's done as much as it's gonna do after four. The nice thing is that you won't hurt anything if you do go a few extra passes, you're just not going to gain anything.



The only thing I don't like about Ultrafina is it does have a tendency to sling once the pad is loaded. Even brushing the pad between applications doesn't help alot. I tried reducing the amount of polish to the point that it wouldn't sling, but then I simply wasn't using enough polish to get the job done. I'd still rather put up with the sling than the Menzerna dust, though.



I then did half the hood using Ultrafina a second, third and fourth time on an LC black foam finishing pad. The result was liquid shimmer.



I then did the other half the same number of times with another black LC foam pad using Mernzerna PO85RD.



On this particular clear coat, there was a large difference in shine. The PO85RD soundly beat the Ultrafina.



I then did the rest of the car using PO85RD and a black pad.



Keep in mind, though, that the PO85RD is useless as anything other than a jeweling polish. It simply can't be used as a compounding step follow-up like the Ultrafina can. Ultrafina just can't be beat in it's ability to bat clean-up after a compound and still leave a dramatic shine. But if you really want to go the extra mile, the PO85RD can improve on Ultrafina. Sometimes dramatically. It just depends on the clear coat.



No pics on this one though, darnit. I can't find the SD card for my camera. :(



Next car I do I'm going to test the Ultrafina on my favorite white finishing wool pad. I'm hoping for less sling.



Edit: Todd brings up a good point about the oils in PO106FF and PO85RD. To really get a good idea of how glossy the paint is after using one of these two polishes, you really need to get the oils off. Rydawg mentioned in a post last year that the best method he's seen for removing Menz oils is an IPA wipe. So I always do an IPA wipe after using any Menzerna polishes. The above gloss test was performed *after* an IPA wipe of the entire hood. After that, the gloss levels were judged according to my keen eye ;) with PO85RD winning.
 
I use the PO85RD when I am ready to remove exixting wax and clean up for a fresh start. I use a finishing pad. Works great.
 
Very cool. I have found that 106ff and 85RD leave more of a gloss behind. Of course wiping the paint with Prep-Sol brings the gloss level down right away. That is because (in my guess) of the stubborn lubricants in both 106ff and 85RD that are impossible to remove with out the use of an aggresive method.



Perfectly level paint can only reflect so much, past that, something has to be on the surface of the paint to increase the gloss.
 
TH0001 said:
Very cool. I have found that 106ff and 85RD leave more of a gloss behind. Of course wiping the paint with Prep-Sol brings the gloss level down right away. That is because (in my guess) of the stubborn lubricants in both 106ff and 85RD that are impossible to remove with out the use of an aggresive method.



Perfectly level paint can only reflect so much, past that, something has to be on the surface of the paint to increase the gloss.
Click to expand...



That is my epiphany for the day. Now I don't feel so bad when I put the LSP on and the paint looks better. I always think "wow, I guess I didn't polish it as well as I could have, or else it wouldn't look better with the LSP on it."
 
What specifically was the difference in appearance? I've used an early version of PO85 and the look is absolutely crystal clear. However, I prefer the more carnauba-like depth I get from Ultrafina. :nixweiss
 
Scottwax said:
What specifically was the difference in appearance? I've used an early version of PO85 and the look is absolutely crystal clear. However, I prefer the more carnauba-like depth I get from Ultrafina. :nixweiss
Click to expand...



Interesting. If these are polishes that are only "leveling the paint", why would one give more of a "carnauba like depth" than the other?
 
Rob Tomlin said:
Interesting. If these are polishes that are only "leveling the paint", why would one give more of a "carnauba like depth" than the other?
Click to expand...



Because of the oils in the product, I would assume. Perfectly level paint has a maximum gloss.
 
Rob Tomlin said:
Interesting. If these are polishes that are only "leveling the paint", why would one give more of a "carnauba like depth" than the other?
Click to expand...



Like Todd said, difference in oils. UF looks very similar to RMG to my eyes.
 
Yea the Ultrafina does sling and is designed to finish wet. No big deal, just a bit messy if you add too much to a pad. Interesting 3M release training on this product. It took several attempts for people to understand to finish it wet. And yes, we had sling up the wazzoo until you get the hang of it.



Great stuff for as you say going from compounding to finish polishing. I like the way it looks as well, very nice. Just took me a little getting used to. Never underestimate 3M Ultrafina!



Menzerna PO85RD abrasives are by far, the best in the industry in serious finish polishing on Ceramiclear. But with soft paint, it's interesting to see how well it works except for the left over oils used mostly as a lube for more cut-time on Ceramiclear.



You have to see some of the Menzerna polishes used in the wood finishing for the very glossy polyurethane finishes on tables. Damn that's some gloss and finish!



You did what I do, use a finish pad to "burnish" the paint with PO85RD. :2thumbs: It was a trial and error effort I found this was a great way to really bring up the gloss to the best level possible.



Too bad you don't have pics!:aww:



As soon as I get more time, I have to do my Porsche. Have to get lots of pics when this happens!



Regards,

Deanski
 
TH0001 said:
Because of the oils in the product, I would assume. Perfectly level paint has a maximum gloss.
Click to expand...



Scottwax said:
Like Todd said, difference in oils. UF looks very similar to RMG to my eyes.
Click to expand...



Thanks guys.



If it is the oils that give a more carnauba depth, I wouldn't really consider it an advantage, since I (and I assume most people) will do a IPA wipe down prior to LSP, and that will remove the oils, right?
 
I've been out of the loop for awhile here. While I was gone, Ultrafina unveils itself as a contender. I have 106ff and some Ultrafina now. Which should I use as a first step. I will need to do some very mild correcting.



I was thinking 106 on a green pad and Ultrafina on a black. Do you think one of these polishes would be sufficient or should I use both?
 
J.J. said:
I've been out of the loop for awhile here. While I was gone, Ultrafina unveils itself as a contender. I have 106ff and some Ultrafina now. Which should I use as a first step. I will need to do some very mild correcting.



I was thinking 106 on a green pad and Ultrafina on a black. Do you think one of these polishes would be sufficient or should I use both?
Click to expand...



IMO if the UF will do the job, then use it. If it will not cut everything out then go with 106ff.
 
Rob Tomlin said:
Thanks guys.



If it is the oils that give a more carnauba depth, I wouldn't really consider it an advantage, since I (and I assume most people) will do a IPA wipe down prior to LSP, and that will remove the oils, right?
Click to expand...



If using a sealant, yes. Or at least go over the car with Z6 or maybe Optimum ID. I usually follow UF with Carnauba Moose anyway.
 
Scottwax said:
What specifically was the difference in appearance? I've used an early version of PO85 and the look is absolutely crystal clear. However, I prefer the more carnauba-like depth I get from Ultrafina. :nixweiss
Click to expand...



The level of reflection, or mirror quality I guess you could say, was better from the Menzerna.



I guess if you could look through a microscope at clear coat, you'd still see very tiny swirls/scratches in it that are equal to the size of the last abrassive that was used on it. Smallest size wins. It's my guess that the PO85RD can break down smallest, hence leaving the smallest possible scratches in the clear. As close to a perfectly flat finish as you can get. Which would then give you the best possible reflections. It's all just supposition on my part, though, I have no proof that this is how it really works. Just makes sense in my warped universe.
 
TH0001 said:
Vintage makes everything better :D
Click to expand...



It sure does. :)



detailjohn said:
You said that BMW paint is "soft"???
Click to expand...



Not like Honda soft, but it's very correctable. Personally, BMW paint (with the exception of their Jet Black, which I refuse to work on) is my favorite paint to polish. Older Mercedes is nice, too.



Bigpikle said:
very interesting read - thanks... I'd like to hear how the 1z High Gloss compares :nervous2:
Click to expand...



1Z High Gloss finishes out much like PO106FF does. It's a very good polish, for sure, with hardly any learning curve.



Deanski said:
Yea the Ultrafina does sling and is designed to finish wet. No big deal, just a bit messy if you add too much to a pad. Interesting 3M release training on this product. It took several attempts for people to understand to finish it wet. And yes, we had sling up the wazzoo until you get the hang of it.



Great stuff for as you say going from compounding to finish polishing. I like the way it looks as well, very nice. Just took me a little getting used to. Never underestimate 3M Ultrafina!



Menzerna PO85RD abrasives are by far, the best in the industry in serious finish polishing on Ceramiclear. But with soft paint, it's interesting to see how well it works except for the left over oils used mostly as a lube for more cut-time on Ceramiclear.



You have to see some of the Menzerna polishes used in the wood finishing for the very glossy polyurethane finishes on tables. Damn that's some gloss and finish!



You did what I do, use a finish pad to "burnish" the paint with PO85RD. :2thumbs: It was a trial and error effort I found this was a great way to really bring up the gloss to the best level possible.



Too bad you don't have pics!:aww:



As soon as I get more time, I have to do my Porsche. Have to get lots of pics when this happens!



Regards,

Deanski
Click to expand...



Glad to hear others are having slinging troubles, too. And the finishing wet part really does take some getting used to; you just want to keep working it, and there's really no point, cause it's done.
 
How much IPA are you guys using to remove the lube oils?



I had been just misting the panels then wiping with a MF or just misting the MF towel. But with all this talk lately about the oils in SIP,106FF and 85RD I have started thinking that I need to switch to a prep-sol type product. Those products state to thoroughly wet the surface and allow to dwell for like 3-5 min and then wipe off. So I used that logic and have been misting the panel until it is thoroughly wet, let it sit for about 45-60 sec and then wipe it off. Is IPA enough?
 
DJBAILEY, there were several threads last summer that talked about how 106FF unintentionally would fill/hide small paint defects. After much debate, it was decided that this effect was being caused by the lubricating oils. So several Autopians set out to determine the best way to get rid of the oils so the defects could be seen again. Several people said that the best way was to use prepsol, and a few others said that some filling could still be seen after using prepsol, and that the best results were obtained with an IPA wipedown. So I guess it just depends on who you want to believe.



I know that Todd is in the PrepSol camp, and that Rydawg *used* to be in the IPA camp, but that was as of last summer/fall, and he may have changed over to PrepSol. I don't know; hopefully he'll chime in here.



Personally, I use IPA. I soak a panel down til it's pretty wet with it, then immediately wipe it away. You can't really let it sit very long, since alcohol evaporates really fast.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top