To Suds or not to suds?

rlmccarty2000

rlmccarty2000

Active member
I`ve been around for awhile but have never quite figured out car soaps. Easy right? Pour some in a bucket, add water and wash. But what about suds/foam? Is a soap better because it foams up or is it better not to? For years I always equated high foaming with good cleaning. Now Rupes comes out with a high dollar soap that does not foam, and that is supposed to be a good thing. I`ve got several bottles of Einzeitt soap that is also formulated not to foam. I used it and really didn`t know what to think. Anyone know which is better high sudsing or low sudsing and the science behind low sudsing shampoos?
 
I don`t value suds, to me suds`re just air/bubbles that don`t contribute anything functionally beneficial, at least not as best I can tell. Wonder how my foamgun-centric wash technique factors in though....

I want slick shampoos that clean, encapsulate, and rinse away OK. Don`t see how suds contribute to that, though admittedly they look good, like..."I bet those bubbles must be lifting the dirty away from the paint so it doesn`t mar!", but I don`t *think* that`s really happening.

Curious what others think..
 
The Rupes one feels like there`s not enough soap in the bucket. Probably just me though. I like optimum car wash it has nice silky suds


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I like a nice white slurry from my foam cannon. Not really the "pop bubbly" type soap. Almost like shaving lather that you whip from a cream or tub/cake of soap. Oddly, I`ve found several soaps at a wide range of prices that seem to have the ability to do this. It is pretty easy to see that it works. If you just let it set until the foam runs off the vehicle most all of the grit is gone, that`s what I`m after.
 
I like Ultima and Reload because they produce mountains of suds, but it is more work to rinse the suds away. A waterless wash has no suds, but it incapsulates the dirt. It`s got me confused. Or does it matter?
 
I am only after the best lubricity - how slick it works across the paintwork with a really great, clean, soft, chenille mitt..

Suds mean nothing to me and I still cant see the value of foaming a car - even harder to do in California with the water restrictions for the past 5+ years...

But then, I dont believe in gritguards either... :) Its just me and Jared Pointer I believe... :)

Rlmccarty2000 - I have only a couple bottles of Einszett Perls Shampoo - "Gentle carwash cleans and protects with polymer waxes"..
It has very little sudsing - is that the one you also have ?

Another really great slick car wash is Zaino car wash... Yeah, I still have at least 1 more bottle left that survived the last move...
Dan F
 
In my opinion, the slickness is what saves the finish and is most important. The foam holds the wash in place longer so it softens the stuck on muck, like a foam cannon but to a MUCH lesser extent.

I like the Super Slick and Suds. Honestly, I over use it because in my mind, its worth it to me not to have polish the car again and I hate swirls caused by washing. Its priced very well and I cannot see that it is any harsher than any of the so called boutique soaps. I use it on my DD and it does not knock the beading off and faster than the Ultima paint wash, or the p21S body shampoo, or the optimum car wash or the PA glisante (this smell`s amazingly good, suds just a tad to almost none, and it is $$$). Love the Luso and it super mild, rinses the fastest and its some $ but not too bad.

I know I over use the SSS wash because my pavers suds when it rains hard :)
 
I never really valued foaming and suds a lot, and like many I prefer good lubricity. I am currently working down my CG C&G soap, and it does have good lubricity and somehow kills anything less than a fresh sealant.. all my beading dies.. but its pretty slick when I run my mitt on the paint.

I may feel this way because I don`t use a pressure washer and foam cannon, but I do have a foamer hose attachment and used it a few times when a car is so dirty that if its white it became a combination of gray and brown... yeah thats when I use a foam gun to let it really pre-soak just in case my mitt doesn`t carry enough solution to the paint... just in case... its that dirty.

I`ve used a few soap (also CG) that is very sudsy... but uh.. it did nothing for me, and I didn`t feel it actually is slick enough to prevent any potential damage.... I used it all anyway since I don`t like to stash soap and let it stale out... hence my slowness in using up/trying new soap.
 
Yes I have a few bottles of Einzeitt Perls Shampoo and it was made not to foam. I did a two bucket wash with it and there was almost zero suds. I did some research and it was designed that way. I still don`t know if I like it or not. I will have to give it another shot.
 
I have moved past the "suds vs no-suds" and agree with Dan. As long as the soap cleans well and provides good lubrication I will use it.

Due to some of my soap testing I have really moved past the foaming of cars as well. As foam on a car doesn`t really do any cleaning and a pressure washer does most of the heavy lifting.
 
I do prefer the formulas that suds. To me, they seem to have more lubricity. Perhaps, it`s due to the soaps that I have and I wouldn`t feel this way about all soaps that suds?
I do know that non-sudsing soaps seem to rinse much easier, as in faster, possibly resulting in a small savings on the water bill. Also, I feel, I get less spotting with many of the soaps that don`t foam-up.
 
I`m finding this an interesting discussion!

I bet that the wash technique being used factors in big-time with regard to which side of this fence one`s on.

And I always find some amusement in how differently people use/consider "foaming", who woulda thunk there could be such variety in such a thing?!?
 
How do you even determine a soap lubrocity? I need a chart like the one for polishes. All soap feels slick to some extent. Subjectivity would be tough. I know some hair shampoos strip the oil out of my hair better than others, so I assume the same with car shampoos. Poorboys just created a new shampoo, I wonder if they care to join the discussion?
 
rlmccarty2000- I find the shampoos with *really great* lubricity do feel a lot more "slippery" than the norm. E.g., when I tried Gold Class I was *immediately* struck by how its lubricity wasn`t even close to what I`m used to.

Hmm, maybe these days I notice a *lack* of lubricity more than I notice an abundance,k given what I`m currently used to. I do remember when I switched from cheap stuff like TW Zip Wax and Westley`s to M62 and Pinnacle Bodywork Shampoo and was really impressed by how slippery the more expensive stuff was, but that was way back in the `80s.
 
One important function of foam is to allow a little bit of product to go a long way. Foaming agents are added to soap for this purpose, and to increase the perceived value of the product (according to me). Soaps, by nature, have more to do with fats and oils than they do of things we`d think of that make foam. If a soap maker wants lots of suds, just add more foaming agent. Foam will eventually become problematic, as the air gap between the soap and the surface becomes too great. Thing is, we just move around those bubbles to disperse the soap. No problem.

On the other hand, a good wetting agent will not foam. In fact, the purpose of a wetting agent is to reduce the air gap between the liquid and the surface - and all of it`s pores and bumps. This is why ONR can claim that it encapsulates dirt. ONR is a stellar wetting agent, as opposed to a foamer. Ever added ONR to your soap bucket? The suds will go down somewhat in response to the wetting agent, and the ONR acts as a defoamer.

Pick you poison. Suds are fun, but are not necessary.
 
With the Zero bucket method I use, that is spray bottle with 25 to 50% soap and water, there is more lubrication and a soap that foams a little or not much at all is fine, its all about lubrication, slickness and being the right soap for the right situation
IE - dusty - make the soap weaker or use a soap that`s designed for well kept paint

sodium laureth sulphate and the cocoamido betained (coconut based stuff) is what is usually used as a thickener and foaming agent to my knowledge and suds really don`t do alot, they help with slightly longer dwell time but that`s about it
I hate soaps that take the slickness away from the paint over time

I`m a rinseless fan too, developed some new methods with that and a hybrid of both wet and rinseless
 
Thanks Waxaddict and SVR, I learned something from both of you. Do either of you mix any rinseless into your soap bucket to increase slickness or is this a waste of time/money? I`ve tried using an ounce of Pinnacle WW into my soap and rinse buckets to see if I could stop water spots. Not sure I accomplished much of anything except getting rid of a product that is (IMHO) not the best waterless wash.
 
rlmccarty2000 said:
Thanks Waxaddict and SVR, I learned something from both of you. Do either of you mix any rinseless into your soap bucket to increase slickness or is this a waste of time/money? I`ve tried using an ounce of Pinnacle WW into my soap and rinse buckets to see if I could stop water spots. Not sure I accomplished much of anything except getting rid of a product that is (IMHO) not the best waterless wash.
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I think, in most cases, that an ounce or two of ONR to the soap bucket can only be a good thing, but like steak sauce, it shouldn`t be necessary if the starting product is prime product. To my Luso soap, no, I don`t add it. I did add it to Optimum and DG soaps.
 
I`ve tried adding IUDJ to my shampoo buckets and sure enough that made things slicker. BUT I also wonder about the chance of it making dirt/etc. stick to my wash media as opposed to being flushed away by the foamgun...not an issue I suppose for folks who expect to find dirt in their rinse buckets, but that`s not me. I`m still just mulling the whole thing over, haven`t made up my mind yet whether I like it or not.

But for most people I`d guess that it could indeed be worthwhile.
 
Stokdgs said:
...But then, I dont believe in gritguards either... :) Its just me and Jared Pointer I believe... :)
...
Dan F
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And me. I shelved my Grit Guard sometime back.

Accumulator said:
I`m finding this an interesting discussion!

I bet that the wash technique being used factors in big-time with regard to which side of this fence one`s on....
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I believe you are right, Accumulator.

I found that the Accumulator Mix (GG/3d Pink) is pretty good (with a foamer spray nozzle) to loosen up some dirt, and carry it away, even prior to taking a hose to it.
 
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