The Pro vs. Enthusiast Arsenal...

jw

New member
I recently just purchased a 2002 m3. On my older cars i have always used one grand omega glaze, followed by blitz. Last weekend i did this on my new m3. After i was done i parked it outsdide and realized that it was really streaky. Even after going over the whole car with show off it was still streaky. So my question is was it maybe too cold(it was 35 degrees) or should i consider switching to something else. I've been debating switching to something like zaino or klasse just because it seems everyone loves zaino. So i would like your guys opinion on switching to zaino or klasse or just sticking with one grand products. Are the sealants better the carnuba.



Please help
 
Welcome to the forum.



You are getting streaks because the Blitz could not properly set-up on the surface. The paint temp. should be above 55-65 for a carnauba to haze properly.



A polymer sealant (Klasse/Zaino) will outlast a carnauba hands down. It will have more UV protection than a carnauba. And you won't have to be applying Blitz at 35 degrees. Just wash and maybe QD the car and it'll hold up.



Which route (Klasse/Zaino) could be determined by your preference. What color car do you have? What kind of shine do you prefer (mirror like or a deep wet gloss?)?



Jason
 
Im very surprised you had trouble with Blitz..Ive been using it for 2 years and just last week I put a coat down and it was 42 out. Went on smooth as always and buffed out easily.
 
Jason said it pretty well.



Polymer sealants will last longer than carnubas but have a different look.



If you want apply Klasse AIO then SG and than will top with a carnuba for the carnuba look.



Again welcome to the forum!:xyxthumbs
 
Well if you like the look of a carnauba, as many of us do, then you can always try a few coats of Klasse Sealant Glaze and then follow with a topper of One Grand Blitz, Pinnacle Paste Glaze, Pinnacle Souveran of P21. Do some research on Klasse and you should get plenty of threads. Laters
 
How much better were the results from going from Zaino to One Grand? In terms of paint look, depth, shine slickness??



Thanks,

Jason
 
<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' >

<em class='bbc'>Originally posted by JasonC8301 [/i]
<strong class='bbc'>How much better were the results from going from Zaino to One Grand? In terms of paint look, depth, shine slickness??

Thanks,
Jason [/b]</blockquote>
To me it's night and day. Also, it's so much easier to keep the streaks away with the Blitz.

Everything is superior, shine, slickness and that wet look.
 
The Pro vs. Enthusiast Arsenal... UPDATED pt. 2

There was a great topic recently brought up on TID about biased and unbiased reviews and the subject of a pros review vs. an enthusiast came up. I thought it would be a good idea to first, differentiate the two types of detailers and second, outline the differences in their product arsenals. This has nothing to do with reviewing products, simply outlining peoples product arsenals based on the type of work they do.

Firstly let me define the 2 types of detailers, and no I will not go into the sub categories of semi pro and semi enthusiasts and that guy down the street who kind of knows what hes doing and ocasionally works on other peoples cars in exchange for home baked goods or simply because he "likes being outdoors".

For arguments sake a professional detailer is someone who makes a living or generates income from detailing cars, has the knowledge to work on and properly care for any type of car and paint finish. An enthusiast is someone who primarily details his or own car, has no desire to turn detailing into a business but may do an extra car on ocasion, family, friend, mistress, whatever.

The pro arsenal: If your a professional detailer or want to become one, your product arsenal is going to change quite a bit. What worked on your own car to clean wheels and polish paint may not work for every other type of car you will encounter, and trust me you will run into more than a few "problem child" cars that have you saying phrases like WTF?! and Tell me again how is that possible?!

Wheel cleaners:
Dont have just 1, My cardinal rule! Recently a few wheel cleaners have come to market which can almost replace a cabinet full of stuff but its NOT the smartest way to buy if you are a professional. Why? Because you dont have to use the best (aka often most expensive) wheel cleaner on every car you do. People seem to overlook this fact. When I am doing new car preps with cars that have but a few hundred miles on them I find there is almost NEVER the need to use a strong wheel cleaner, Sonax for example does work fantastic but it costs a lot per bottle or 5L jug. Instead I use a more economical (yet euqally safe, still pH neutral) wheel cleaner, almost any one will suffice as long as it has mild cleaning power and is cost effective it will work beautifully. This alone can save you a ton of money on wheel cleaner becuase you should only have to use your expensive stuff on wheels which are worthy, that is dirty, baked in brake dust etc. Many of my customers wax their own wheels and clean them every week, why in the world would I need to use Sonax on them when I see that persons car again? Some safe cheap wheel cleaner does the trick just the same. If you can find a wheel cleaner that is dilutable thats even better!

Still if you are a professional and working on all types of car be sure to have at least one of each type of wheel cleaner, one strong pH neutral, one mild cost effective cleaner and I still keep a 1/2 gallon of Meguiars Wheel brightener around for severe cases. That is an acidic product and always a last resort, only for clear coated wheels!

Stay tuned for part 2, thats enough writing for now:biggrin:
 
PART 2....

Pads, Polishes and Machine Choice

Enthusiast Arsenal: If you are an Enthusiast this topic is hugely important and my hope here is to alleviate some of your concerns when it comes to pads and machines and second, SAVE YOU SOME MONEY!

I get a lot of emails and PM's from enthusiasts asking about rotary polishing and when its okay to move onto to a rotary from a hand polishing or a DA machine. My response as of late is simply.... You do not NEED a rotary, stick with your current DA or if you dont have one, pick one up! I use both the Griots machine and the Megs G110 V2 which are excellent. The Griots has a little more power for more serious correction jobs but for 90% of the jobs out there the Megs G110 V2 will work beautifully and do so more comfortably thanks to better ergonomics, rubberized grip and balance PLUS it offers a quieter and smoother operation over the Griots machine.

As for "when its okay to buy your first rotary" .... um, how about whenever you want? Your an adult, if you really want a rotary, go buy one. I find it ridiculous that people wait years to buy a machine, its a polisher not a handgun... your never not ready.

Just because you may not know how to use it properly doesnt mean you cant have one, this isnt the dirtbike debate you had with your dad when you were 8... not knowing how to ride can result in a neck injury or death, not knowing how to rotary is slightly less dramatic.

I bought my first rotary 4 months after my first DA, I didnt know how to use it at all but I just kept practicing on scrap panels until I got the hang of it.... some say it takes years to master, I say practice until your hands hurt and youll be on your way in a month (that is 30 days of practicing at least an hour a day)

As with anything your skills will constantly progress, just because you arent a jedi master of rotary does not mean you cant polish cars with it, just be confident enough in your ability that you will not cause damage (work at slower speeds, keep the pad flat, mind your pressure etc) This is how people get better at anything, keep doing it, pick up the nuances and eventually it will become second nature.

So I have to get a rotary eventually right?

With the latest goodies from Meguiars, Lake country and SurBuf (M105, M205 and the Hydro Tech Pads etc) the DA is has become a serious tool for serious paint correction. With the right pads polishes and technique you will be very surprised at the finish you can achieve with a DA machine. I personally see ZERO need for anyone who doesnt detail for profit or isnt working on various types of cars and paint finishes to need a rotary at all but if you want one go for it.

I personally really enjoy the smoother operation and find on harder paint cars it works better for serious defect removal, again thats my opinion. Doesnt mean you cant replicate those results with a DA machine the process is just very different and for me I often prefer the rotary method.

Pads for Enthusiasts: A lot of DIY and enthusiasts think they need to have every pad on the market to get quality results on their own car. This isnt really the case. Heres how you should approach buying pads if you are a DIY'er.

First polish your own car with what you have and see the results, if you see the foam cutting pad your using leaves a ton of marring maybe you will want to switch to a less coarse foam (IE: LC Yellow down to an LC Orange). Again if you see your polishing pad doesnt quite leave the finish perfectly level and without haze maybe move to a softer foam.

Lake Country makes 3 finishing foam pads... Black, Red and Blue.... just because they MAKE all 3 foams doesnt mean you need to BUY all 3 foams. This concept many people seem unable to grasp:Boxing:

I personally love the Black LC foam, so if that works for you than thats the ONLY foam you need to buy (buy others if you want but thats at your discression).

*Dont buy 1 black, 1 red, 1 blue thinking you just outsmarted anyone and having all 3 makes your arsenal complete, quite the opposite actually. Everyone for the most part works of a budget, I do, I allot certain $ per month to be spent on products. So if your working within a buying 1 of each foam instead of 3 of the same kind puts you at a disadvantage if your an enthusiast, heres how...

Remember your not working on 50 different types of cars and paint finishes! Having 1 of each is a bad idea because if one outperforms the other, well you still only have 1 of that pad which means it constantly needs to be cleaned and washed, this will take forever if your doing a full paint correction! The idea is to find the best foam for the car or cars your doing and buying several of them, that way you can move through polishing quickly having a stack of clean pads ready to go, one gets dirty, grab another and wash all of them AFTER the car is finished, not during the job itself.

Pro pad choice: I think by far my biggest expense with regard to products are pads, I spend more money on pads than anything else in my arsenal. Why? Because pads make or break a correction! If your a professional detailer who does high level correction, you need to have lots of pads and know which ones will work best for certain paint finishes.

Example, tomorrow I will be polishing an Audi R8 in metallic gray... I know that this is a very hard clear coat and therefore my pad choice will be specific. For defect removal on such a car I would opt for one of the hydrotech pads from LC, probably tangerine or cyan because it works beautifully on harder paint finishes and does not "soften up" like the standard LC orange foam after extended use. If your trying to cut out defects from a very hard clear coat than using foam that softens up after the initial 30 seconds of polishing will make your job much harder, however on a soften finish this is actually beneficial I found. Think specifically about the type of finish your working on and choose pads that reflect it.

Working on more delicate finishes such a soft clear coats makes pad choice even more crucial. When 106FA and a white polishing pad leaves hazing on a black car, you know your working with a soft clear coat. This is where having multiple types of foam pads pays off. You may find that the LC red pad finishes down better than the Blue on a particular car, now if you only had 1 type of finishing foam and THAT foam did not finish down 100%... you have no other options to try, as a professional this is what I call, a NIGHTMARE! (Note about nightmares in detailing: Avoid them.)

I am at the point now where I have enough different types of pads in enough sizes to handle pretty much any job, I think :out:l. If a certain cutting pad doesnt work I have 2 or 3 others to try, all my bases are covered.

Also for the professional its very important to have a lot of pads, especially those pads which you constantly use. Pads break, tear, get contaminated, fall on the floor etc.... if you only have 2 of a certain pad and 1 breaks in the middle of a job your in deep you know what. Order enough to get you through any situation, very important.

Also if your a pro and working on different cars you need to have various size pads and backing plates to accompany them. If you tend to work on SUV's and family sedans than large pads and backing plates should make up the bulk of your arsenal, if you work on smaller cars or sports cars with tight spaces and curvy shapes, smaller pads and smaller BP's, simple enough.

Pro machines: 1 major rule, have more than 1 machine. If your a pro using only a DA to polish cars thats fine, I highly suggest however you have a second machine on hand. Machines cut out all the time, cords bend, brushes fail etc. if this happens and you have only 1 machine your job is not getting done, and remember someone is paying you to have that job done! Yes machines are a big ticket expense when it comes to detailing but they also make up the bulk of the work you do, take the hit and spend the money if your a pro.

Pro Polish Choice: I am going to say something right now, I may get flamed, I may be wrong but I really do not care. Here are the products that I feel should be in EVERY professional detailers polish cabinet

M105, M205, Menzerna Powerfinish, Menzerna 106FA ... ladies and gentlemen that is the core of a solid polish arsenal. I say CORE because there are many other products which are excellent but at the same time, ancillary. Products like PO85rd is not absolutely needed, but its damn good to have!

Enthusiast Polish choice: Keep your polishes to a bare minimum, the less you have the less you have to worry about. If you find you can get all the correction you need from 2 polishes than fantastic, just buy those and use them often.

Remember, especially if your an enthusiast, keeping your product selection to a bare minimum means that you are constantly using the same products thus furthering your ability to use them most effectively and most efficiently.

If you buy Menzerna powerfinish and use it everytime you polish your car, you inevitably will know its working time, breakdown phases, how much heat your generating with it granted the pads are the same etc. There if something to be said for the comfort factor when it comes to polishes. If you have 5 or 6 different polishes similar to Powerfinish you probably wont have the time to really master all of their abilities... this is why keeping selection to a minimum is helpful for a enthusiast.

... more to come. Part 3 sometime this week.
 
Great, great, thoughts and process, David !

I totally agree with everything you have said and have been using more than 1 wheel cleaner, for example, for years, because as you have said, its not a great idea to waste expensive products on well-kept wheels in the first place.

They only time one might use a more expensive (stronger) cleaner for well kept wheels, would be that you are pressed for time and want to clean quickly and effectively the first time, and not ever have to go back and fix this one little spot, etc..

Thanks for taking the time to do this with all that you have going on.

Really appreciate it !

Dan F
 
As for the face of the wheels, its amazing what just soap and water will do.

But yes, the inner barrels almolst always need a good dose of some type of wheel cleaner.

Complicated wheel designs also make it difficult to get brake dust out of all the nooks and crannies.
 
I love this thread David!

I thought you were going to point out that an enthusiest has many more products than the professional because the professional knows what works and how to use it whereas the enthusiest just moves on to the newest, latest, greatest product. At least that is how I feel about myself sometimes. ;) I would love to thin out my products because there is so much unneccessary overlap.

I agree with what you said about wheel cleaners too. I do not detail professionally, and do not wish to. At this point, soap and water works great for most, I use Megs APC+ on dirty wheels and WB on the barrells and Cleared wheels if needed. I look forward to reading what you have to add!
 
Has any pro costed out how much it takes to do a wash/wax from a supplies perspective?

My guess is the enthusiast and pro's using lots of high end products would a few dollars in car soap, detail spray, etc. compared to the volume pro's that buy in gallons or higher. I see some starting detailers spending $5 on products to get $30 gross - not an easy way to make money.
 
Good thread David.

I detail professionally on the side, I can never be satisfied with a 9-5 gig, so I started this to keep me occupied and have really become passionate about it. Having started this business, it's amazing when I look back to when I began. I thought I had a pretty decent arsenal for a regular consumer maintaining my vehicle, boy was I wrong. All the stuff I had when I started fit in a small tote, now I have a hard time fitting everything in the back of a pickup truck (actually I couldn't if I hauled the extractor and everything). Some may look at everything and think it's overkill, but it's not even close.

I think if you intend to service customers in a professional capacity, you need more than a couple buckets, car soap and wax. I like knowing that I have the product/tools to tackle almost anything (still have more stuff to get) that I run in to. When a customer asks "Do you have something for this?" I like saying "I certainly do."

Anybody can go out and spend thousands of dollars on products they never intend to use or even know how to use, just so they can say "I spent $400 on a pot of wax." A professional builds his arsenal slowly so he can learn what works best for him based on his needs/talents and that of the customers he wants to serve. If I bought everything I currently have a year and half ago when I started, that wouldn't have made me a better detailer.

Way too much typing for one night, sorry. I look forward to this thread, as I have a lot of respect for the people here. Thanks.

-Kody-
 
I started detailing for money because I was on a quest to find the "best" detailing products and by charging for my work I was able to buy and try lots of stuff. After a few years of chasing the dream (or my tail like a puppy) I figured out a few things: 1. just because it's pricey doesn't make it great and 2. just because walmart sells it doesn't make it crap. I found cleaning chemicals locally in Raleigh from a small detail business that work just as good if not a hell of a lot better than the uber goo from da fatherland. I only use 4 polishes now - Menz PowerGloss, 203, FFII and M105. The cleaning chemicals are all majestic solutions stuff - Super Green, Tidal Wave, Wheel Brite, and Bug Off. (I do use Bleech White on the tires of "some" cars!)
I like Clay Magic blue and #49 Body Shine for my clay needs. For interiors - well, I have Optimum Protectant, Megs Detailor line leather (still evaluating) and few odds and ends that I'm using up. Trim - MS has a trim spray in a can that's pretty good if you use it right, and I have some several MS tire dressings that I keep for different type tires. Oh - and everybody needs a can of Plexus - best $ you ever spent to keep headlights/tail lights looking new.

So - as a weekend "pro" everything I use can be bought in bulk should I want or need to go full time.

LSP? BFWD - really? you had to ask!

JB
 
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