The Perfect Shine??

[Beemerboy]

I was reading a couple of thread here about the rotary and the PC. The talk was about IF the PC can take swirls off where a rotary will remove most of them very easy.

The question for me is can the perfect swirl free finish be obtained?

Can either of these machines remove 100% of the swirls on the clear or not?

I recently did a brand new black car and used the rotary and the PC....there where some very light swirls left in the clear, but only under certain lights......and that was just one here and another there.

Do we have to live with this?

I have owned two black cars and a couple of other very dark colors..


My answer is that YES that removing all the swirls in the clear is close to impossible?

I don't care what you are using!

What are your thoughts?

( I'm only speaking of base coat / clear coat cars)

 

[jdoria]

My thoughts -

The rotary is a powerful tool of finesse that also can be a wrecking machine. In the proper hands it will produce a swirl free finish. I have achieved a swirl free finish many times after final polishing with a rotary. (This means close examination with a 1000 Watt halogen with trained eyes from multiple angles)But as soon as you apply and remove wax, here come the swirls...

My experience thus far with the Porter Cable is that its is a novelty. I can not achieve "accepable" results yet with it. I dont know if it is the pads or the procedure I am using. I'd like to use it more, its much cleaner than pulling out the rotary and taping up a car. I plan to get someone from this board to my garage to watch me use it and critique. It can't be that I am the minority that thinks this is a waste of $120.

 

[Tex Star Detail]

Yes, close to impossible. I think going for an absolute flawless, no swirl/scratch finish EVERYTIME, can result in premature clear coat failure. I say this because, if you are cutting away all the time at each and every swirl or scratch, even the ones that WILL NOT come out, you are only thinning the Clear each time you do it. My 0.000000002 cents

 

[Beemerboy]

My thoughts -

The rotary is a powerful tool of finesse that also can be a wrecking machine. In the proper hands it will produce a swirl free finish. I have achieved a swirl free finish many times after final polishing with a rotary. (This means close examination with a 1000 Watt halogen with trained eyes from multiple angles)But as soon as you apply and remove wax, here come the swirls...

My experience thus far with the Porter Cable is that its is a novelty. I can not achieve "accepable" results yet with it. I dont know if it is the pads or the procedure I am using. I'd like to use it more, its much cleaner than pulling out the rotary and taping up a car. I plan to get someone from this board to my garage to watch me use it and critique. It can't be that I am the minority that thinks this is a waste of $120.

Your over-spray thread was one the got me to thinking about THE PERFECT SHINE. I'm really not asking if one is better than the other ( rotary or PC)....I'm asking ONLY can anyone really produce a perfect swirl free finish on the clear....

 

[BLUELINE 1]

I agree with what you have said. No matter which tool you use its impossible to remove 100% of the swirls. Do I think you can get faster results with a rotary? yes. Do I think you can get the same results with a PC just with more time? yes. I have learn to except a swirl here and there and hope that my lsp will fill it enough that its not visible.

 

[Beemerboy]

I agree with what you have said. No matter which tool you use its impossible to remove 100% of the swirls. Do I think you can get faster results with a rotary? yes. Do I think you can get the same results with a PC just with more time? yes. I have learn to except a swirl here and there and hope that my lsp will fill it enough that its not visible.

You just hit the nail on the head for what I do.....I bring the finish to the best I can with the rotary , PC or using both. Then what little swrils or defects that are left in the clear...I will use a glaze to cover those, then sealant / wax or both...is this bad?.....I do it on my cars and that's what launched my detail business.

 

[Beemerboy]

Yes, close to impossible. I think going for an absolute flawless, no swirl/scratch finish EVERYTIME, can result in premature clear coat failure. I say this because, if you are cutting away all the time at each and every swirl or scratch, even the ones that WILL NOT come out, you are only thinning the Clear each time you do it. My 0.000000002 cents

I value your thoughts and mine are along the same line....you can't cut every time and not expect to go threw the clear eventually....

 

[Brenton]

To me, unless the car is maintained and nursed from day 1, 80-90% reduction of swirls is fantastic-incredible.
Ugh. I gotta get out to my own car. I've got two little black sports cars in my shop and a rainy day with a mean Noreaster. Pretty quiet in my shop.

 

[jdoria]

Your over-spray thread was one the got me to thinking about THE PERFECT SHINE. I'm really not asking if one is better than the other ( rotary or PC)....I'm asking ONLY can anyone really produce a perfect swirl free finish on the clear....

I can after final polishing. I have done it many times. But it is gone as soon as I take the wax off..

The dust (not polish residue) that gets between the microfiber towel and the clear can make new swirl marks.

 

[Tex Star Detail]

I agree with what you have said. No matter which tool you use its impossible to remove 100% of the swirls. Do I think you can get faster results with a rotary? yes. Do I think you can get the same results with a PC just with more time? yes. I have learn to except a swirl here and there and hope that my lsp will fill it enough that its not visible.

You just hit the nail on the head for what I do.....I bring the finish to the best I can with the rotary , PC or using both. Then what little swrils or defects that are left in the clear...I will use a glaze to cover those, then sealant / wax or both...is this bad?.....I do it on my cars and that's what launched my detail business.

I do the same. I have never had a complaint from any of my customers about a swirl here or there. Whatever is left over, just try to fill it with a glaze with alot of fillers in it.

 

[Beemerboy]

I can after final polishing. I have done it many times. But it is gone as soon as I take the wax off..

The dust (not polish residue) that gets between the microfiber towel and the clear can make new swirl marks.

I'm going to have to get on one knee in amazement.....I've got over 30 years at paint detailing....and I yet to achieve this at 100% on a clear coated finish.....your better than I am....that's also not meant to be a smart remark

 

[Jngrbrdman]

100% PC work with the right products and process.

before:

after:

Would a Rotary have been faster? Maybe. Would it have looked better? Not possible on that hood. If you use a tool long enough then it is amazing what you can learn to do with it. I can understand someone who has become accustomed to the speed of a rotary saying that the PC doesn't get the same results, but that is just because they are used to faster results. A little patience goes a long way sometimes.

I don't see myself ever needing to get a rotary. I'm sure they are great, but I would still need to have a PC for applying waxes and sealants and I don't see a rotary being the best tool out of the two for that job. So as long as I'm going to have to have a PC sitting around anyway, I might as well spend my time learning how to get the best results possible out of it. Until the PC proves to not be able to get results for me, I suppose I'll keep using it. :bigups

 

[jdoria]

I'm going to have to get on one knee in amazement.....I've got over 30 years at paint detailing....and I yet to achieve this at 100% on a clear coated finish.....your better than I am....that's also not meant to be a smart remark

It is not easy and you can not get the entire car this way. You can count on getting the hood, trunk, roof, fenders, doors, and quarter panels swirl free. The rockers and bumbers are always a no go, too many curves.

I learned how to do this at a high end autobody shop using only 3M chemicals and pads, and a Makita rotary! No toys, no boutique products, just hours of polishing. We would cut 3M black pads down to about 4" diameters to get in all of the detail areas on Ferraris and such. Proper lighting, patients, and a boss that got well paid for 100% results helped.

 

[jdoria]

100% PC work with the right products and process.

before:

after:

Would a Rotary have been faster? Maybe. Would it have looked better? Not possible on that hood. If you use a tool long enough then it is amazing what you can learn to do with it. I can understand someone who has become accustomed to the speed of a rotary saying that the PC doesn't get the same results, but that is just because they are used to faster results. A little patience goes a long way sometimes.

I don't see myself ever needing to get a rotary. I'm sure they are great, but I would still need to have a PC for applying waxes and sealants and I don't see a rotary being the best tool out of the two for that job. So as long as I'm going to have to have a PC sitting around anyway, I might as well spend my time learning how to get the best results possible out of it. Until the PC proves to not be able to get results for me, I suppose I'll keep using it. :bigups

Now move 3 feet closer for the next picture. I want to see if the marks are completely gone or just so small they are not visible from this distance. That is the problem I am having with the PC.

 

[Beemerboy]

It is not easy and you can not get the entire car this way. You can count on getting the hood, trunk, roof, fenders, doors, and quarter panels swirl free. The rockers and bumbers are always a no go, too many curves.

I learned how to do this at a high end autobody shop using only 3M chemicals and pads, and a Makita rotary! No toys, no boutique products, just hours of polishing. We would cut 3M black pads down to about 4" diameters to get in all of the detail areas on Ferraris and such. Proper lighting, patients, and a boss that got well paid for 100% results helped.

My experience at paint correction spans over 30 plus years....my father painted cars as a part time business in the winter....mainly for friends.. that's where I learned about wet sanding and rotaries. The products we used where Dupont and 3M for the most part...this was the days of single stage....Today working on clear coated cars...I really don't find that hard....but they are unforgiving of ANY mistake you make, and in most case are impossible to bring to defect / swirl free finish...that's opinion....and I do think that I'm about as good as anyone here!

 

[jdoria]

I think working in a high end paint shop is the best way to learn how to polish paint correctly. You really get to know what to look for and how to correct it when you work in a paint shop. That is why I personally think using a rotary and wet sanding a black hood is easy, I have done it a million times under the supervision of people that cared. (And a $100,000 downdraft paint booth with Glasurit and Sikkens paint systems on standby in an emergency!)

Beemerboy-Coming from the Imron days, you probably know how to polish a tank tread out of a marble floor! I worked on 60's and 70's Ferrari's and Maserati's that came to America in such bad shape, they all needed to be repainted. That was how this shop I worked in came to fruition.

*- I know most body shops are butchers and swirl up and halogram the hell out of your cars. The good guys are hard to find. I'd also say that most detailers out there are doing nothing more that putting chemical fillers in swirled up paint, waxing it, and sending it out as a good job. That is what separates you from the rest.

 

[Beemerboy]

I think working in a high end paint shop is the best way to learn how to polish paint correctly. You really get to know what to look for and how to correct it when you work in a paint shop. That is why I personally think using a rotary and wet sanding a black hood is easy, I have done it a million times under the supervision of people that cared. (And a $100,000 downdraft paint booth with Glasurit and Sikkens paint systems on standby in an emergency!)

Beemerboy-Coming from the Imron days, you probably know how to polish a tank tread out of a marble floor! I worked on 60's and 70's Ferrari's and Maserati's that came to America in such bad shape, they all needed to be repainted. That was how this shop I worked in came to fruition.

*- I know most body shops are butchers and swirl up and halogram the hell out of your cars. The good guys are hard to find. I'd also say that most detailers out there are doing nothing more that putting chemical fillers in swirled up paint, waxing it, and sending it out as a good job. That is what separates you from the rest.

I have 3 customers here that are dealerships...they all have detail shops....they call me when they are looking for high end stuff...

 

[Jngrbrdman]

Now move 3 feet closer for the next picture. I want to see if the marks are completely gone or just so small they are not visible from this distance. That is the problem I am having with the PC.

Well, here's the question... why would you ever want to remove every single mark on the paint on a daily driver that is immediately going to get scratched by road debris again? Particularly on a 10 year old car. There is damage and wear on a 10 year old car that even a rotary isn't going to be able to fix.

Some people just need to learn to live with the fact that perfection is unatainable. You will never remove every scratch and ding in the paint no matter what you are using. Some damage dents the paint and that isn't going to be removed. So unless you are willing to spend a couple hours with an air brush and a rotary every weekend, you are going to have to live with the fact that 90% is good enough. 90% of the population isn't going to know the difference between "90% good" and "100% perfect" anyway.

Now move 3 feet closer for the next picture. I want to see if the marks are completely gone or just so small they are not visible from this distance. That is the problem I am having with the PC.

Again, that is the problem you are having with it. I haven't ever had a problem removing all the damage that can be removed. Sure there are still scratches on the paint, but they aren't scratches that a rotary is going to fix. "Perfect" is relative depending on what the paint condition is under all the swirls and oxidation. Not every paint job can be restored to 'fresh from the paint shop' shiny.

 

[mgm2003]

I was reading a couple of thread here about the rotary and the PC. The talk was about IF the PC can take swirls off where a rotary will remove most of them very easy.

The question for me is can the perfect swirl free finish be obtained?

Can either of these machines remove 100% of the swirls on the clear or not?

I recently did a brand new black car and used the rotary and the PC....there where some very light swirls left in the clear, but only under certain lights......and that was just one here and another there.

Do we have to live with this?

I have owned two black cars and a couple of other very dark colors..


My answer is that YES that removing all the swirls in the clear is close to impossible?

I don't care what you are using!

What are your thoughts?

( I'm only speaking of base coat / clear coat cars)

IMO, No. It would have to start with a meticulous paint process -and you just don't get that with mass produced vehicles. I think you can get pretty close, using sunlight as your gauge. When you bring in the high powered, or specialty lights, all bets are off. Under these conditions I think it's next to impossible to remove EVERY defect 100%.

 

[Jngrbrdman]

Most paint jobs don't even arrive to the dealership 100% defect free. They are plagued with orange peel from thinner painting processes and I've even seen runs in the paint and drips around corners. You just have to realize that there are only two things in this world; what you can do and what you cannot do. The answer to that is different on each car. Can you repair the pits and clear coat fractures of a 15 year old single stage paint job? Not with just a rotary or PC you can't. Can you make a well maintained late model car look as good as it can ('can' is the key word there) look with either tool? Yes.