swirl removal pdct/pad combo Q`s

J

jojo69

New member
So I was an early adopter of the 3D DA (still have it) and have orange & green foam pads to get swirls out.
Product I often use is Hd adapt (I have HD speed but find that adapt gets rid of more swirls in 1 pass).

On my subaru paint, 1, 2 or even 3 passes on orange pad/speed 5ish on the DA and HD adapt still doesn`t quite get rid of 100% of swirls. A good chunk, but not perfect.
Now, I know there could be a technique problem there, but let`s assume for the sake of the argument, that my technique is fine (i.e. I take my time, overlap 50/50, don`t apply crazy pressure, clean my pad often, maybe put a bit too much polish because I get dusting).

What pad and/or product could I use to try and get more swirls out with 1 to 2 passes?

1) get an yellow foam pads and same polish?
2) get different polish? If so, any recommendations on user friendly ones? There are so many companies now offering great pdcts...
3) Give up getting 100% swirl free corrected paints with foam pads?
4) try MF pads with same polish?


Thanks for reading and your thoughts!
 
You are not going to get 100% without a lot more work. 90-95% is achievable.

It does sound like you are coming up against RIDS.
 
If you are not using downward pressure, its going to take a lot longer or it may never happen..

My experiences with Subaru paint were that it was slightly soft, easy to work with, and on a Rotary, with downward pressure, low speeds, to not get it too hot, I had great results..

I dont know anything about the HD DA, but any random orbital of the older technology aka Porter Cable 7424 type machines, I would run it wide open and put downard pressure, going slower, not faster, getting the product broken down, keeping the product, panel, and pad, just moist enough to allow it all to work until it was almost translucent.. You can barely see it, the pad is now wiping it all up for you, you can see if you did good enough, and then a careful wipe with an absolutely clean, soft, microfiber, should reveal a great finished result..

You are getting dusting because you are allowing the pad, product, and surface to get dry.. Try to not do that...
Keep a bottle of even Pad Conditioner close by, hanging off your back pocket or in the pocket of your apron, etc., so that you can quickly spritz a little on the surface while you are working that spot down to almost all gone like I said above..

Tell us what you are doing to your pad between passes ???

How many pads of each color do you have??

How are you cleaning them and drying them?

I get swirl free finishes all the time even using a Rotary.. Anyone can do this if you want to take the time to work out the processes..

We are here to help, let us know..
Dan F
 
I got better/faster results every time with the green pads over the orange.

On the rare occasion the green doesn`t work, I`ll use a microfiber pad.

To be clear, the green pads I use are made by Buff and Shine. They make HD, Uber, Nanoskin, Hex Logic, Adams, and the former Edge2000 pads. They`re much more aggressive than the green Lake Country pads.

I use them on the Porter Cable 7424, and 7424xp. I found that they work best with light to firm pressure. I`m usually going for maximum rotation, and that doesn`t happen for me with heavy pressure.

The compounds I use are Meguiar`s Ultimate Compound, Meguiar`s M100, or Menzerna FG400. It`s not often I need anything stronger than UC, but I use M100 because I can get it in larger quantities. It does cut, and finish beautifully though.
 
Stokdgs said:
You are getting dusting because you are allowing the pad, product, and surface to get dry.. Try to not do that...
Keep a bottle of even Pad Conditioner close by, hanging off your back pocket or in the pocket of your apron, etc., so that you can quickly spritz a little on the surface while you are working that spot down to almost all gone like I said above..
Click to expand...
Sometimes, more often at the beginning, with a clean pad, i get better results than after a few panels. Pad conditioner you say, so is that a generic name for some QD distilled water?

I also notice that my pads will at times get warm/hot. usually the panel is too. Is that because I am going to slow? too much pressure? not enough polish?


I do put usually apply medium pressure. I clean pads by spinning the pad on the DA and applying a coarse brush on it. It`s a brush I bought on a site "specifically to clean" pads on the fly. I see that it takes away some of the caked polish out, but not all of it. I don`t do anything to the pad between passes, other than say applying some more polish. I have about 4 or 5 pads of orange Buff&shine pads, and same of green pads. A few blue B&S pads I have used once, and 1 black and 1 red. ALL foam, ALL Buff & shine brand.

cleaning is always by hand: soak in hot water with dawn. and rub with hands/squish out excess polish, rinse & repeat until nothing appears to be left.
Let air dry upside down (velcro up, foam down on a paper towel).

I do have Meg UC. Never actually used with the DA; And yes, I guess I need to try again, taking my time, on a non-paid job.
I still wonder about an yellow pad (cutting pad from B&S) and MF pads to try and see if i would get faster results with same polishes...


Thanks for all the comments, made me re-think a few things.

PS: HD DA is same as Harbor freight`s DA. I actually stumbled on the power button mod and grease mod that I need to do as mine is very loud!!







We are here to help, let us know..
Dan F[/QUOTE]
 
jojo69- Sounds like you need a *LOT* more pads so you can always be using a clean/dry one. I`m quite confident that you`re simply not getting the pads *nearly* clean enough...no, not flaming you, it`s just one of those things that takes a lot more doing than people ever imagine, as does the whole "Correction via Machine" thing.

FWIW, I only use "pad cleaning brushes" when working with a rotary, never with a RO/DA. Getting a used foam pad clean enough to keep using it is virtually impossible IME...at least doing it in a timely manner. MF cleans quickly if you have an air compressor, but IMO most people simply need to have a lot more pads so they can switch to a clean/dry one after a little (less than one might think) work.

I also suspect that you might..just might..be using the wrong amount of polish. "Enough as per the KBM" can be too much with other methods and some products.

And while I don`t use Pad Conditioners, I agree 100% with Stokdgs about *NOT* overworking the product. I buff virtually all my Compounds/Polishes off while still a bit wet, only things I allow to flash off are those that "leave stuff behind" and I don`t always do it with those either. Dusting usually = overworked product IME.

When I do correctiuon, it actually seems like I`m cleaning pads and inspecting more than I`m actually polishing!
 
I typically clean my foam pads by using the brush you describe, and by occasionally wiping the face clean with a cotton terry cloth towel. The towel not only grabs the residue, but also wicks up some of the excess liquid.

I never really use pad conditioners, and I never prime using the KBM method. I`ve used the Rupes method before I even knew what Rupes was. Basically start with four or five drops of polish, and reload with three.

As far as the yellow pad goes, it wasn`t any different for me than the orange. After trying the yellow and orange on so many cars, the green kept getting home earlier than the others. Not that the orange and yellow didn`t work, but having to go over the same area two or three times, with heavy pressure.... Nah. The green got me there in one set of passes, way less pressure, and a much smoother operating experience. Pink Lake Country pads have an almost identical foam structure. I use the blue Buff and Shine foam for final polishing, and red for sealants. After trying hundreds of dollars of pads, on many different vehicles, those were what I settled on - with B&S microfiber pads for those times where the foam just isn`t going to do it.

As far as cleaning, I like the CG pad cleaner. 2oz of product in a 16oz bottle, then fill with water. I spray each pad enough to saturate the pad. Massage the product into the pad until the residues are released. Rinse with cold/luke warm water. Smash excess water over the sink - no folding, twisting, rolling for me. Then I spin on speed 1 of the PC, and air dry on cookie cooling racks, or mini dish racks.
 
You are getting dusting early on as you said, because you have not "primed" the pad with some moisture and the product..

That explains why you said it gets better after you have used it awhile; the pad is now primed and will work all the way around the surface with enough moisture and product..

I like to use a Pad Conditioner on all my Lake Country Hydro-Shreds before I start and keep using it throughout the correction or polishing stage as needed.. I use C/G pad conditioner because it is inexpensive and works just fine.. Some will say its really a Quick Detailer and perhaps it is; I don`t really care, it works just fine for me on hundreds of vehicles..

I do not use water but I suppose it would be fine too..

The pads I use are designed to not absorb much of anything on purpose so I am more sensitive to keeping enough moisture on the surface so that all these things can play together nicely and finish even better with little to no wiping off when done with that spot..

I never use a Pad Cleaning Brush because I feel it can start to destroy the foam and I don`t want that to happen..

I always clean the pads after each pass is finished, with a clean, white absorbent small cotton towel so that I can see what is coming off the pad from the paint, what color it is, and to remove moisture if there is too much..

On really dirty paint that has also been washed, clay bar`d or clay towel`d, I have seen a dull yellow gunk come off on the towel from the pad, and that is all the dirt, pollen, all those nasty waxes from the car wash, etc., that was still embedded in the paint that would only release when it was rubbed with something ( a compound) that could grind a little off the surface and take it off with it..

I find that using a towel and wiping evenly across the pad - say 1 direction that pass, and then another direction the next pass, helps distribute stuff more evenly across the pad surface and they seem to work better and longer before I have to change it out..

And as Accumulator has said, you really need a lot of each pad you work with, so that you can always have a new, clean, dry one ready to go and your work will be more even and perfect across the entire paintwork of the vehicle...

I prefer to use a dedicated pad cleaner that unfortunately is no longer sold here at the Autopia Store - its called Snappy Clean..
Its made by Lake Country I believe and they make a zillion pads for probably well over a decade..

Its a very nice powder you mix in your bucket with water, soak them, then when finished for the day or night, bring the bucket in or wherever you do this, take each one and rub the face against the face, squeeze it, rinse, it and its really clean..

Been using this product for over 10 years and it has never failed to work perfectly for me and I wash at least a dozen pads each time..
Perhaps they sell it at autogeek? If not, detailiedimagedotcom sells it...

Ref pads and panel get hot - yes this is as you know a result of friction - yet another reason to keep it moist to help keep the heat from getting too high and making things not work as good..

I dont know your process so I cannot comment why you are getting the heat..

The only "constant" that you Always want to have is - Pad Rotation - the more the merrier...
But you have to also balance how much downward pressure you use to to help the machine, pad, and compound to work together and clean up and polish the paintwork..

Each vehicle`s paint will react differently to your process so you have to be watching carefully, learning what is happening, and adjusting all the variables until you find the best amount of machine speed, downward pressure, and the speed of how slow or fast you make those overlapping passes across the paintwork, before you stop and see how its going...

If I were using a Random Orbital, I would start slow to spread the polish better across the pad And the finish, then speed it up to full speed, press down enough but not too much to slow down pad rotation, and make the passes until it starts to dry and spray it a little and keep working the product across the panel until the product starts to disappear and you can see the paint more clearly..

You may have to reduce pressure as you keep going, and perhaps speed up your arm stroke across the panel as you work the product down and it starts to go away or break completely down if its DAT or not break down completely if its SMAT...

I would keep the working surface moist enough to allow me to keep going across until as I have said before, everything is about all gone, and the pad has wiped it all off for you..

Then stop feel the panel, not too hot? You did good...

Take a clean white towel and wipe firmly across the pad - if its really dry, spray it, rub it in a little and wipe that all off..

Now, hopefully its clean enough to go again a few more times..

Microfiber - very effective but can leave marks in the paint that will have to be removed with another step.. Needs to be cleaned very well each pass - the best way - compressed air and small nozzle, so you have to have an air compressor, probably separate power for it, and you are lugging around an air hose with you and blowing a lot of stuff around ..

I don`t particularly care for it unless I want to really knock something down that is taking too long even with a Rotary... That is so very rare for me, all my microfiber pads still rest in the pad cabinet, and will probably never get used..
And now, you need a lot of microfiber pads AND still need foam pads to smooth things out..

Again, there is no, perfect, do this, do this, and do that, in exactly this many steps, passes, pressure, etc., there are way too many variables to consider and they are always different even on the same vehicle if it has been spot painted in places, etc...

You want the correction and polish phases to be very smooth and effective, and when you get that it`s because you have started to learn that paintwork and your working combination of machine, pad, product and your process for that spot very well now..

It will always be a learning experience on every vehicle, and we who do it for a living know this all too well...

You too will get the hang of it if you want to take the time to work with it and start cataloging all those variables in your head as you work and learn them..

Good Luck !
Dan F
 
Stokdgs said:
You are getting dusting early on as you said, because you have not "primed" the pad with some moisture and the product..

That explains why you said it gets better after you have used it awhile; the pad is now primed and will work all the way around the surface with enough moisture and product..

I like to use a Pad Conditioner on all my Lake Country Hydro-Shreds before I start and keep using it throughout the correction or polishing stage as needed.. I use C/G pad conditioner because it is inexpensive and works just fine.. Some will say its really a Quick Detailer and perhaps it is; I don`t really care, it works just fine for me on hundreds of vehicles..

I do not use water but I suppose it would be fine too..

The pads I use are designed to not absorb much of anything on purpose so I am more sensitive to keeping enough moisture on the surface so that all these things can play together nicely and finish even better with little to no wiping off when done with that spot..

I never use a Pad Cleaning Brush because I feel it can start to destroy the foam and I don`t want that to happen..

I always clean the pads after each pass is finished, with a clean, white absorbent small cotton towel so that I can see what is coming off the pad from the paint, what color it is, and to remove moisture if there is too much..

On really dirty paint that has also been washed, clay bar`d or clay towel`d, I have seen a dull yellow gunk come off on the towel from the pad, and that is all the dirt, pollen, all those nasty waxes from the car wash, etc., that was still embedded in the paint that would only release when it was rubbed with something ( a compound) that could grind a little off the surface and take it off with it..

I find that using a towel and wiping evenly across the pad - say 1 direction that pass, and then another direction the next pass, helps distribute stuff more evenly across the pad surface and they seem to work better and longer before I have to change it out..

And as Accumulator has said, you really need a lot of each pad you work with, so that you can always have a new, clean, dry one ready to go and your work will be more even and perfect across the entire paintwork of the vehicle...

I prefer to use a dedicated pad cleaner that unfortunately is no longer sold here at the Autopia Store - its called Snappy Clean..
Its made by Lake Country I believe and they make a zillion pads for probably well over a decade..

Its a very nice powder you mix in your bucket with water, soak them, then when finished for the day or night, bring the bucket in or wherever you do this, take each one and rub the face against the face, squeeze it, rinse, it and its really clean..

Been using this product for over 10 years and it has never failed to work perfectly for me and I wash at least a dozen pads each time..
Perhaps they sell it at autogeek? If not, detailiedimagedotcom sells it...

Ref pads and panel get hot - yes this is as you know a result of friction - yet another reason to keep it moist to help keep the heat from getting too high and making things not work as good..

I dont know your process so I cannot comment why you are getting the heat..

The only "constant" that you Always want to have is - Pad Rotation - the more the merrier...
But you have to also balance how much downward pressure you use to to help the machine, pad, and compound to work together and clean up and polish the paintwork..

Each vehicle`s paint will react differently to your process so you have to be watching carefully, learning what is happening, and adjusting all the variables until you find the best amount of machine speed, downward pressure, and the speed of how slow or fast you make those overlapping passes across the paintwork, before you stop and see how its going...

If I were using a Random Orbital, I would start slow to spread the polish better across the pad And the finish, then speed it up to full speed, press down enough but not too much to slow down pad rotation, and make the passes until it starts to dry and spray it a little and keep working the product across the panel until the product starts to disappear and you can see the paint more clearly..

You may have to reduce pressure as you keep going, and perhaps speed up your arm stroke across the panel as you work the product down and it starts to go away or break completely down if its DAT or not break down completely if its SMAT...

I would keep the working surface moist enough to allow me to keep going across until as I have said before, everything is about all gone, and the pad has wiped it all off for you..

Then stop feel the panel, not too hot? You did good...

Take a clean white towel and wipe firmly across the pad - if its really dry, spray it, rub it in a little and wipe that all off..

Now, hopefully its clean enough to go again a few more times..

Microfiber - very effective but can leave marks in the paint that will have to be removed with another step.. Needs to be cleaned very well each pass - the best way - compressed air and small nozzle, so you have to have an air compressor, probably separate power for it, and you are lugging around an air hose with you and blowing a lot of stuff around ..

I don`t particularly care for it unless I want to really knock something down that is taking too long even with a Rotary... That is so very rare for me, all my microfiber pads still rest in the pad cabinet, and will probably never get used..
And now, you need a lot of microfiber pads AND still need foam pads to smooth things out..

Again, there is no, perfect, do this, do this, and do that, in exactly this many steps, passes, pressure, etc., there are way too many variables to consider and they are always different even on the same vehicle if it has been spot painted in places, etc...

You want the correction and polish phases to be very smooth and effective, and when you get that it`s because you have started to learn that paintwork and your working combination of machine, pad, product and your process for that spot very well now..

It will always be a learning experience on every vehicle, and we who do it for a living know this all to well...

You too will get the hang of it if you want to take the time to work with it and start cataloging all those variables in your head as you work and learn them..

Good Luck !
Dan F
Click to expand...

Just wanted to say THANK YOU for this Dan F.

:10:
 
Note the different opinions/experiences expressed by different people who are all getting the desired results. The "!YMMV!" thing in action...but also note the areas where everybody basically agrees (like how you can never have too many, or too clean, pads).
 
And big "`Thumbs up" to ALL contributors to this thread thus far in taking the time to share your thoughts on this question (given how complex a simple polishing step can be given the number of factors involved).

Major message I am taking away is have more pads. Playing around with moisture I will have to do.

Another minute piece of the equation is that the most recent car I did was a 10+ year car that had never been detailed. Even after light claying and ironX decon, my pads were `dirty` from much contamination, which most likely hindered the results I was used to getting when working on my 4yr old (and autopia-like cared for car).

I agree everything is very much a learning curve and the friend I spent 8hrs 1step polishing his car was ecstatic at the results, whereas I was just `mehhh`.

I had read about the pad moisturizing aspect but was under the impression that 3D/HD polishes didn`t need it (and I can`t recall if they are smart or dat). That being said, it sure can`t hurt to try next summer when I do my car again.

I have used dawn and soap, soak pads, rub with fingers and wry out. I admit to often thinking that twisting (as much as I try not too) the pads to get all the soap out worries me in terms of possible compromising of the pads. I will look into dedicated cleaner and see if it may be cost/effective for me as even just doing 5 or 6 pads takes me a good chunk of time to clean.
I often have to remind myself to keep this "fun" and not "anxiety provoking"!? A good dose of obsessiveness is welcome, in moderation ;)

Again, thanks to all (Dan F and everyone else) for your contributions, time reading and your comments!


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