Rotary Compounding – Is It Dead?

Good read. Funny, I was just discussing this very subject recently. I virtually have not used my Makita 9227c since I got the MF DA polish and pad kit. This, to me , has significantly shortened the amount of time I need to correct and finish my details. I'm simply amazed at the speed of this system. The first time I used it my jaw literally dropped. I couldn't believe the correction I was seeing in just a couple passes.



I bought my first PC in 1995 and the Makita about 4 years later. I've been using both for many years on countless details and I don't recall ever being so impressed by the advances in technology as I am with these MF pads & polish.



Thanks for posting this link.
 
Perhaps for enthusists, however doubt a volume, professional shop could do enough work to stay in business without using rotarys.

grumpy
 
Ron Ketcham said:
Perhaps for enthusists, however doubt a volume, professional shop could do enough work to stay in business without using rotarys.

grumpy



Yes, there are many volume shops who will continue to use rotaries to install holograms. If speed and low cost are what a customer wants, then they get what they pay for. Those who want better will seek out the right person.



McDonald's mastered the art of volume and they sell enough to make great money, but you don't go there expecting a gourmet meal. It is only due to ignorance that some people can't tell the difference between a greasy burger and Filet Mignon or a hack job and a great detail.



There are plenty of detailers who can create great results with a rotary, but the point is that it still takes time to create quality work.
 
I guess I am just stuck on the old ways. I love going around a car with M105 or SIP with my Dewalt 849 and doing correction. Hell, I do a lot of cars from start to finish with just a rotary. People make rotaries out to be bad tools, but in the right hands, with someone who is trained and comfortable with them, they give great correction. Now I have recently picked up the MF Disc and can say. Some 6" ones will be getting ordered soon. I could easily do a whole car, cutting with the MF disc, and then turn around and do the final polish with my rotary. The final polish with the rotary to me, still gives the best gloss finish.
 
I am not sure how a DA can get in such tight quarters as a rotary with a small pad(I think of the rear plate area on a lot of trunk lids), but it's listed as one of the pros do DA compounding. How is that so, I am being genuine not sarcastic.



I am not personally stuck on any single method. For whatever reason, sometimes rotary gets me the better results and sometimes a DA will and both get tried on a car before I start down one route. Most full corrections end up getting a bit of both. I will not shoehorn myself into just one method though.
 
Exactly, since a dedicated shop has to do cars that are not garage queens, haven't had a thing done since they were put in service two or three years earlier, some serious correction is required.

In my shops, we cut and polished with a rotary to remove these concerns, then followed up with a DA and foam to remove any swirls, etc and to apply the final wax/sealant. Very few imperfections were ever seen, as the DA finished up the machine work.

If we would have attempted to do these vehicles using only a DA, the labor time would have doubled the cost of the detail and we would have not lasted a year or less of being in business.

Grumpy
 
Ron Ketcham said:
Perhaps for enthusists, however doubt a volume, professional shop could do enough work to stay in business without using rotarys.

grumpy



Actually, Meg’s primary market for that the microfiber DA system is (and its biggest customers for it are) high volume professional shops.



First off, Meg’s themselves doesn’t make any claim that the microfiber DA system will replace rotaries in all applications. The fact that some detailers have found that it can eliminate (or nearly eliminate) their need to use a rotary simply shows that the product performs above and beyond Meg’s original intent.



Meg’s intent for the system is to provide near-rotary levels of cutting performance, with a very good to excellent final finish, without holograms, with a minimal number of products (lowest logistical complexity and cost), with a minimal learning curve.



This makes it ideal for the very highest volume commercial operations (like auto auctions) where costs and schedules must be very tightly controlled but operators must be trained quickly.



The characteristics that make it ideal for high volume shops, performance, consistency, simplicity and ease of use, also make it a powerful tool for the craftsman detailer who can further refine his process to achieve even higher level results.





Jean-Claude said:
I am not sure how a DA can get in such tight quarters as a rotary with a small pad(I think of the rear plate area on a lot of trunk lids), but it's listed as one of the pros do DA compounding. How is that so, I am being genuine not sarcastic....

By using a small DA pad and backing plate. They make 3" pads and plates.



But even the standard 6" and 5" microfiber pads are much thinner than the same diameter foam or wool pad so they can get into tighter spaces.







pc.
 
The rotory isn't dead, and doubt it never will be. There are two sides to every coin. I personally love using both machines. I feel a DA can compete with a rotory. Once you truely mastered a rotory and compounding, I couldn't see giving one up. A DA can bridge the gap, but why would someone switch to DA when they can do the work with a rotory. I think it all boils down to personal choice. Thats like the topic is wool gone? Learn how to use it and its your best friend! I know way to many truely exsperianced guys still using wool pads and the rotory?:think: I am one of them. When you certain gentleman doing real projects and not just swirl removing and not just hologram and swirl removing you see them using rotorys and wool. There is a reason why. Heck even this really cool dude still uses one! Just saying:tongue2: :rockon1:







IMG_3483.jpg
 
the other pc said:
Actually, Meg’s primary market for that the microfiber DA system is (and its biggest customers for it are) high volume professional shops.



First off, Meg’s themselves doesn’t make any claim that the microfiber DA system will replace rotaries in all applications. The fact that some detailers have found that it can eliminate (or nearly eliminate) their need to use a rotary simply shows that the product performs above and beyond Meg’s original intent.



Meg’s intent for the system is to provide near-rotary levels of cutting performance, with a very good to excellent final finish, without holograms, with a minimal number of products (lowest logistical complexity and cost), with a minimal learning curve.



This makes it ideal for the very highest volume commercial operations (like auto auctions) where costs and schedules must be very tightly controlled but operators must be trained quickly.



The characteristics that make it ideal for high volume shops, performance, consistency, simplicity and ease of use, also make it a powerful tool for the craftsman detailer who can further refine his process to achieve even higher level results.







By using a small DA pad and backing plate. They make 3" pads and plates.



But even the standard 6" and 5" microfiber pads are much thinner than the same diameter foam or wool pad so they can get into tighter spaces.







pc.



Very well said. There are a lot of veterans who haven't tried the newer systems yet, and they may be unaware how far along DA technology has come. Great post, PC.
 
Jean-Claude said:
I am not sure how a DA can get in such tight quarters as a rotary with a small pad(I think of the rear plate area on a lot of trunk lids), but it's listed as one of the pros do DA compounding. How is that so, I am being genuine not sarcastic.



I am not personally stuck on any single method. For whatever reason, sometimes rotary gets me the better results and sometimes a DA will and both get tried on a car before I start down one route. Most full corrections end up getting a bit of both. I will not shoehorn myself into just one method though.



If the shoehorn fits, I'll wear it. ;)



As "the other PC" noted, no issues at all reaching the tight spots with a 3" MF pad.
 
Ron Ketcham said:
Exactly, since a dedicated shop has to do cars that are not garage queens, haven't had a thing done since they were put in service two or three years earlier, some serious correction is required.

In my shops, we cut and polished with a rotary to remove these concerns, then followed up with a DA and foam to remove any swirls, etc and to apply the final wax/sealant. Very few imperfections were ever seen, as the DA finished up the machine work.

If we would have attempted to do these vehicles using only a DA, the labor time would have doubled the cost of the detail and we would have not lasted a year or less of being in business.

Grumpy



Ron, I'm glad this was a well cared for garage queen.



No fillers like some of the high volume shops, just nearly 100% correction. All via a r/o.
 
Thanks for the replies TOPC and Bryan.



I did some quick searches for the 3" pad and noticed this review by, non other than Todd Coopertrooperbrotherer:



" I started using this new system immediately upon arrival, and for the past 3 months I have used the compounding system exclusively (with the exception of some 4" spot pad compounding on the rotary), regardless of paint type, level of defects, hardness, etc. I have used it on single stage paint, clear coat systems, incredibly hard paint (Lamborghini), very soft paint, and I have even used it to clear up sanding marks!



While Meguiar's may not have designed it for really heavy defects, it sure is capable of fixing them. Is this a game-changing technology? In my professional opinion it certainly is. Is it going to be the perfect solution for every detailer and every paint type? No it isn't...but then again, show me ANY product that is perfect for every situation. There are always limitations.



One important note that I should make on this new DA system is that it was also designed to achieve rotary-like correction capability (or better) on a dual-action polisher. A rotary polisher requires a very high level of skill and experience to do correctly without the safety issues of burning edges and creating swirls and holograms.



Meguiar's has developed game-changing technology here; particularly on the compounding side of the equation. Heavy defect removal, ease of use, and with the relative safety of using a dual action polisher is a winner in my book!



- Product Review: Meguiar's DA Microfiber Correction System by Todd Cooperider"



Found here: Meguiar's DA Microfiber Cutting Disc Buffing Pad - 2 pack - 3" | Detailed Image



According to the article writer's own words, there is no single best solution for all paints and cars. Not arguing with anyone as everyone has their method and as long as they are fulfilling their promises to their clients, it's all good. Different folks, different strokes and all... But I feel having the ability to use either method with efficiency is more important than fixating on just using one method. Times do change though, and the day may come with rotary really is done with. I just don't see it as today.
 
A lot more experienced people have chimed in here. Just wanted to mention another possible reason to keep on using a rotary is having a flex. Then the rotary (at least) allows for spot pads.



Not taking sides or anything just stating my reality.
 
One of these days I will share with all just when the DA was used and shortly after it started to go main stream.



Long time ago, late 1988, if my memory serves me.

Grumpy
 
While I don't feel the rotary is dead, I can certainly say that my rotaries have taken a back seat to my DA polishers over the last year or two and probably 90-95% of my work is now done via DA. (keeping in mind my 1st polisher was a rotary over 20 years ago).



That being said, I will continue to treat each car/job individually and I will use whatever tool yields the best results based on my test spots. I do feel there are still some tasks or paint types that the rotary still excels on, but on most paints I do feel the DA has equaled or surpassed the rotary.



I think this video shows just how well and fast the DA/MF can work....best part, no holograms!

D300 test spot - YouTube







Just my $.02

Rasky
 
I have been using a DA for most my details on some I will use a rotary and wool then follow up the rest with a DA. I think the Meg MF has helped me personally in detailing and I would love to learn to truly master the rotary
 
Ron Ketcham said:
One of these days I will share with all just when the DA was used and shortly after it started to go main stream.



Long time ago, late 1988, if my memory serves me.

Grumpy

I was working for Finish Kare at the time and DAS (Nissan port operations) in Long Beach called the office, I was in San Diego, and was beeped on my pager (long before cell phones, that how long ago it was) so called the office.

Was told to call my contact at DAS as they were in a panic.

Had to be there in two hours, and the 3M and Mequiar's rep was to be there as well.

Seems that the Nissan/Infiniti paint engineers had selected a new clearcoat that contains a flurotelamer resin in it-(base of Teflon) that they believed would reduce or eleminate bird etching, acid rain etching etc.

There were 3000 new Q45 that had to go to dealers in three days for the unvailing of Infiniti, but one small problem.

All had unbelievable swirls in these high line, flag ship, vehicles.

It seems that when they came off the assembly line, there was a large amount of dust nibs in the clear, so they sanded the nibs and buffed them

, then applied a glaze and put them on the ships.

When they were washed at the port, big swirl concern.

This was not acceptable, to Infiniti, the dealers, etc, so the port had attempted to polish out the the swirls, didn't work.

They just got worse.

We three (they at least thought we were) experts, were to attempt to resolve this huge issue.

No matter what any of us hit them with, product, pad, buffer speed, etc, they just kept swirling, like we had done nothing but make it worse. We even tried using the old WaxMaster orbital buffers and no luck.

After a few hours of playing around with product/pad, etc combinations, I was leaning against the C pillar of a burgandy Q45 with my palm for maybe three minutes and then stepped away to look at the car one more time and scratch my head.

I noticed that my "palm" print was in the clearcoat!

Whoa!!!! Talk about "soft clearcoat"!

That's when all three of us starting asking some new questions, and ended up on the phone to the plant in Japan with the lead paint engineer.

We learned of the flurotelamer being added, and figured it was why the clear was remaining soft.

Which he agreed with.

However, the company had a multi-million dollar ad campaign breaking in three days, dealers had spent more than a few bucks on their new facilities, local advertising,etc and at least two cars had to go to each dealer for the launch.

I don't recall the name of the Mequiar's rep, but he told the 3M rep and me about a new tool they were working with and may introduce it to the detailing community, not like anything we had seen at the time.

What the "h", go get it, anything to get this resolved, so he drove to Irvine and came back with two PorterCable DA's, velcro backing plates and some new foam pads.

Didn't make much difference of whose polish product we used, they all did wonders with the paint issue.

End result, Infiniti got a DA and some pads, with the Mequiar's product to each dealer ASAP and instructions of how to use on the other vehicles they would receive in the coming months.

The port took all the DA's that Mequiar's had available and went to work, and the cars made the dealers for the launch.

Neither Finish Kare or 3M got any of the business at that time, but what we did was appreciated and we both got other business from Nissan and Infiniti later on.

Those poor souls that got cars from that production run, what a mess, it was almost as if you looked at them, the showed marring.

A couple of years later a large percentage of those first run cars had clearcoat delamination, etc.

These things happen, to all vehicle manufactuers, just this one is about the first time that DA's were used on more than some body playing in their garage at home.

Grumpy
 
My Milwaukee rotary needs a new backing plate, but I haven't bothered replacing it. Now that I'm aware of the Kevin Brown method and MF discs, why bother with the rotary? I don't need the stress of worrying about burnt paint when my mind wanders and the edge of the pad rubs on an adjacent panel for a couple seconds. I might spend an extra 15 minutes on a ca doing a full correction, but it's certainly worth it to me.
 
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