really technical question about waxes/sealants

J

jjagain

New member
We just got a new piece of equipment at work that I've been using and being the autopian that I am, I thought of a great non-work application for it.



A lot of people have compared waxes, but they've all been (from what I've seen) very qualitative studies: apply 4 different waxes to the hood, take some pictures, see how long they bead water for, etc.



The new toy that we got allows us to measure the contact angle of a liquid with a flat surface. i.e. if you put a drop of water on a plain piece of glass, it will spread out and wet as much of the surface as it can. If you put a hydrophobic film on the glass, the water will bead up into small balls. the contact angle characterizes indirectly how hydrophobic the surface is.



I've been thinking of trying some tests like this with various car waxes to have some numbers to compare them.



The most convenient substrate for me to use is some cheapo microscope glass slides and then apply the wax onto that. Would the wax bond to the glass in the same way as it would bond to paint/clear coat (i'm guessing that it doesn't really matter)?



I can also make optical absorption and reflection measurements, but I think that there would be too many other variables which would affect how a given wax would look on a car like if it's dark or light paint.



What do you guys think?



These are the products that I have right now that I could try and test before the weekend:



Meguiar's Gold Class

Meguiar's HI Tech Yellow wax (liquid) #26

Meguiar's POlymer Sealant #20

s-100 (if someone could send me a little bit of p21s, i'm sure we could get a good idea if this really is the same stuff :) )

NuFinish



Cheers



Tim
 
That would be pretty damn nifty. Like the website says that way you could compare the hydrophobic ability of a variety of waxes/sealants.



The benefits of a test like this suppose that the main reason for waxing a car is to bead water. Also does anyone know if this is actually a measure of durability and protection??



The color of the paint would definitely make a difference in the optical absorption and reflection measurements, as each color differs in these respects. Right?
 
the only way that I think that you'd be able to measure the durability is if you prepare several samples and make the measurements on them every day and see how it changes over time. I guess as the wax wears off you'll be left with a hydrophilic surface.
 
Sounds interesting. You'd have to be really consistent with your methods of dropping the water and plan on "weathering" the samples somehow too I imagine. Not sure if the fact that you're using glass matters though.... I wonder if Steve will see this thread and what he thinks. :D
 
The size of the water drop is controlled - something like 1 micro liter per drop.



I *think* that it's just the surface that matters. when you apply and buff off the wax you're leaving a relatively thick film left.. maybe a micron or so?



As for weathering, I don't really have any way of controlling it :-/
 
Zilla -



I have wanted to do this for a long time - but these instruments are just too expensive for me to buiy as a curious individual. (In my fantasies I have huge amounts of time, I get some discarded body panels from body shops, and test all kind of things, with good "controls" in each case. In reality, this will probably never happen.) Consumer Reports did a wax study not too long ago, and although I thought it was flawed for other reasons, they did measure longevity exactly as you describe - a device to look at the "contact angle" of water droplets.



I would like to use the one you talk about, plus a "gloss/haze meter", plus one of the new hi-tech paint thickness gauges to provide completely objective data about wax quality.



I would prefer to see you run the test on a surface with real auto paint on it. The porosity and molecular makeup of the surface must have something to do with the degree to which the wax "bonds" or doesn't.
 
We have an instrument which allows you to measure the thickness of a thin film also. The problem will be getting a flat surface with "real auto paint".



The closest I can think of is getting an aeosol can of clearcoat and spraying the glass samples with that first and then doing the wax test.
 
Interesting post Tim, id like to see the results from these tests, as im sure alot of us would, would you not have to use metal pieces as opposed to glass?? i guess that wouldn't affect the drops though?
 
my impression is this:



for testing beading properties it wouldn't matter what you put the wax on as long as it's a continuous coating.



if you're testing durability, then you'd want to apply the wax onto a sample with automotive clearcoat on it.
 
Hi Zilla, :wavey



I read your message regarding contact angle and discussed your idea with one our chemists.



A couple of points



First point



Automotive waxes are formulated to bond to automotive paints. The chemical make-up of glass, (silicates), as compared to automotive clear coat paints are totally different chemistries.



When you remove the wax products from the glass slides, it’s possible you will remove “most� of the product, (our products as well as anyone else’s product).



To get “real world results� we recommend conducting your test on a surface with an actual "automotive" finish. Hopefully, your machine will be able to work with some type of panel with an actual automotive finish?



Second point



Some waxes take up to 24 hours to fully “set-up�. I wanted you to be aware of this in order to help you perform the most “controlled� test possible.



(Note: This doesn’t mean leave the wax on the surface for 24 hours, it just means the protective film you leave behind after removing the excess doesn’t fully set-up until 24 hours. Providing the wax even adheres to the glass slides versus actual automotive paint samples.



We also suggest you will get your best results if you allow each of the wax products to fully dry, or cure for the recommended time outlined on each products directions. At normal room temperature settings, this would be approximately 15 to 20 minutes.



A simple way to test the wax to see if it’s finished drying, is to do a finger “Swipe test�. That is “Swipe� your finger across a waxed portion. The surface should appear dry underneath, not smeary looking. The exception for this test is the Meguiar’s #26 Hi Tech Yellow wax because it doesn’t really dry, it’s more akin to a pure polish as far as drying characteristics go. For #26 just wait 15 –20 minutes then remove by gently buffing to a high gloss using a 100% cotton towel.



I noticed you are not testing “Meguiar’s Cleaner Wax�, (A-1216). We have recently re-formulated this product to bead-up like “water off a duck’s back�. (It really does bead water well and the water beads are, small, tight, and tall).



If you like, I will send you a “free� sample. Or, if you need it sooner, you can find it at just about any auto parts store in your area. (Note: Canadian Tire does carry this product.)



Look for the words “New & Improved� on the front label of the bottle and of course, like any liquid wax, shake well before use and we recommend you buff all products with a clean, soft 100% cotton terry cloth towel to a high gloss finish.



(For your testing purposes, avoid using a Microfiber cloth)





If you like, I would be willing to send you some “Black� paint panels, that have Factory Baked-on OEM paint, (basecoat/clearcoat). These panels are “un-touched�, they are just like a car would be after being painted by robots on the assembly line. I can also tell you where you can purchase them yourself if you prefer, your choice.



As far as “durability� goes, water beading on a surface is only an indicator of “High Surface Tension�.



As far as “car care productsâ€� go…“Water Beadingâ€� is a “Visual Indicatorâ€� of a substance formulated to create high surface tension as long as it resides on the surface.



Water Beading is not an accurate indicator of a layer, or film of “Real� protection.



A brand new car, out of the factory with a baked-on finish that has never been polished or washed will bead water incredibly well due to high surface tension. It does this without the additional application of any other protective coating.



It is also true that if you apply a protective coating to the same above unadulterated finish, ‘some’ paint protecting products, such as Meguiar’s Gold Class wax, will actually decrease the surface tension and reduce water beading.



However, with the application of the Gold Class wax, the finish is now ‘more’ protected from the type of harmful elements and environmental conditions the average person will subject their car to, than had the finish not had an application of Gold Class wax applied to it.



Just because a wax is applied to a surface to create high surface tension and thus good water beading characteristics, this does not mean that the residual film or layer left behind can protect the paint from the kind of harmful elements found in normal day-in and day-out use. Including, tree sap, bird droppings, acid rain, air-borne contaminants, industrial fall-out, salt, road grime, bug splatter, paint overspray, extreme heat, and UV rays.



Let me know what you would like to do, as a fellow Autopian, detailing enthusiast and Meguiar’s employee, I am always interested in experiments like these.



p.s.



Tests such as these, i.e. instruments designed to test contact angle, Gloss meters, and other such measuring devises have been used many times to test and compare products.



Our conclusions are that nothing can ever replace the human eye, and the human experience when testing or evaluating a particular product because of all of the variables.



Even the ASTM, (The American Society for Testing and Materials), has no definitive standard, or measurement for testing wax durability.



Hope this helps…



Mike Phillips
 
I'd love to see S100 vs P21S, to; like you said above, see if they are the same or not?? someone send him some P21S hee hee;)
 
Just a simple fact..

When a material is no longer hydrophobic (water-hating),

it does NOT default to a hydrophillic (water-loving) state. It likely becomes neutral.



A soft contact lens is hydrophillic.

A well-waxed auto is hydrophobic.



Jim
 
Wow Mike. Thanks for that great bit of information.



Your comment about how some waxes take up to 24 hours to i.e. hard goes along with some observations here about S100 paste wax. The level of shine/reflectivity increases a day or two later! It's nice to see a large manufacturer backing up the observation.
 
Automotive waxes are formulated to bond to automotive paints. The chemical make-up of glass, (silicates), as compared to automotive clear coat paints are totally different chemistries.



When you remove the wax products from the glass slides, it's possible you will remove "most" of the product, (our products as well as anyone else's product).



To get "real world results" we recommend conducting your test on a surface with an actual "automotive" finish. Hopefully, your machine will be able to work with some type of panel with an actual automotive finish?
Click to expand...



Unfortunately, I was expecting something like this to occur.

I was thinking about spraying some clear coat onto my glass

slides and then applying the wax onto those.



The machine that we have can only work with flat samples. There is a stage that holds the sample and you can move it in the xyz plane, so you can bring it up close to the needle where the water is dispensed. in principle I don't see why a curved surface would be a problem. The problem would arise during the analysis because the software creates a baseline which coincides with the surface that the drop is resting on. it only uses 2 points to construct this baseline, so in practice it must be a flat sample.



Some waxes take up to 24 hours to fully "set-up". I wanted

you to be aware of this in order to help you perform the most

"controlled" test possible.



(Note: This doesn't mean leave the wax on the surface for 24 hours, it just means the protective film you leave behind after removing the excess doesn't fully set-up until 24 hours. Providing the wax even adheres to the glass slides versus actual automotive paint samples.



We also suggest you will get your best results if you allow each of the wax products to fully dry, or cure for the recommended time outlined on each products directions. At normal room temperature settings, this would be approximately 15 to 20 minutes.
Click to expand...



I was planning on running all the samples every day over the course of a week to see if there was any time dependence. :xyxthumbs



A simple way to test the wax to see if it's finished drying, is to do a finger "Swipe test". That is "Swipe" your finger across a waxed portion. The surface should appear dry underneath, not smeary looking. The exception for this test is the Meguiar's #26 Hi Tech Yellow wax because it doesn't really dry, it's more akin to a pure polish as far as drying characteristics go. For #26 just wait 15 -20 minutes then remove by gently buffing to a high gloss using a 100% cotton towel.
Click to expand...



when I use #26 on my car I usually apply it to the whole car, let it sit for about an hour and then remove it with a buffer. gave me great results last summer. I also found that waiting a few weeks between coats gave amazing results!



I noticed you are not testing "Meguiar's Cleaner Wax", (A-1216). We have recently re-formulated this product to bead-up like "water off a duck's back". (It really does bead water well and the water beads are, small, tight, and tall).
Click to expand...



I was just listing products that I have in my garage right now.



(For your testing purposes, avoid using a Microfiber cloth)
Click to expand...



why is that?





If you like, I will send you a "free" sample. Or, if you need it sooner, you can find it at just about any auto parts store in your area. (Note: Canadian Tire does carry this product.)



If you like, I would be willing to send you some "Black" paint panels, that have Factory Baked-on OEM paint, basecoat/clearcoat). These panels are "un-touched", they are

just like a car would be after being painted by robots on the assembly line. I can also tell you where you can purchase them yourself if you prefer, your choice.
Click to expand...



sure! how big are these panels? I'd like to make several samples and test them at the same time.. how many of the panels could you send (the more the better)?



Let me know!
 
Zilla,



A couple of notes,



Test Panels



The black panels I have here were painted in 1995 by Advanced Coating Technologies, Inc.



Here is their website, http://www.actlaboratories.com



Here is the information supplied on the back,



Cold Roll Steel 18x24x.032

B952 P60 DIW Unpolished

Ecoat ED11

Basecoat HBAL8555 Black

Clear URC1000

Paint Spec 998-4065

Paint Manufacture PPG

Reference GMC



The panels I have are “untouched�. We have not wet-sand, cut or buff these panels, nor applied any other product to them.



If you like, I will send you two panels to use for your testing.



Question: Can you use a panel this size with your machine?



(A better idea might be to cut some strips of steel/aluminum to a smaller size, and have them painted)



If these panels will work for you, I will ship you two of them and include a bottle of our new Cleaner Wax for your testing, (high water beading characteristics).





Microfiber versus 100% cotton terry cloth toweling.



The reason I suggest you use 100% cotton toweling instead of a microfiber cloth for removing the wax stems from our experience in the Mold Release industry.



While we all agree microfibers are faster to use and more gentle to highly polished surfaces, we never recommend their use for removing our mold release waxes. Unlike an automotive finish, it is very important to leave the maximum amount of mold release coating on the surface of the mold to insure you don’t “stick� a mold.



We have found that sometimes a high quality microfiber polishing cloth does “too good of a job�.



Something to consider. (This could be/should be a discussion all on it’s own)



Let me know, I’d be happy to work with you and whatever you decide.



Sorry it took me so long to get back to you, I was in a training class all day, (actually I’ll be in a training classes all day Tuesday and Wednesday, so my time for forums will be sparse on these days).
 
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