Product Effectiveness: Question for Poorboy

[HondaMan]

This question might be best for Steve/Poorboy:

In alot of our discussion regarding products and detailing experiences, it's subjective analysis: color depth, ease of applications, how it looks, how long it lasts under our specific conditions, etc.

What about actual physical measurement of the products we discuss?

I was doing multiple layering using some Klasse and Poorboys stuff this weekend. I read that the paint thickness on a car is about 1/160th of an inch (maybe 1/6th of a millimeter). I got to thinking the following:

(1) How thick is an actual application layer of stuff like Poorboys EX-P ?

(2) Do you have a means to mesure it? If so, is it measured in microns or fractions of a millimeter (microns are 1/1000th of a mm)?

(3) If 1 layer of EX-P results in a certain thickness, have you meausured the depth of the NEXT layer of EX-P (or other sealants) applied if it is done immediately? An hour later? 3 hours later? 24 hours later? I'm just curious if after the 1st layer is laid, you might still get 90% of the thickness if you put it on an hour or two later, but closer to 99% or 100% if you waited a few hours or the suggested 24 hours later.

(4) When you put a layer of EX-P down, how much -- that is to say, how THICK -- would the layer be if one wiped it offf IMMEDIATELY? What about if one let it dry to the haze but took it off after a few minutes? Waiting the suggested 30-60 minutes? How about letting it sit for a few hours (this is what I did this weekend).

(5) Finally (!): what about different surfaces? I did the EX-P windshield treatment and I got the feeling the slicker glass composition made it tougher for the EX-P to "grip" -- so I let it sit for about 6 hours before wiping it off. Have you noticed that EX-P doesn't take as well to glass as it does with paint? Again, have you measured the thickness of layers after you wipe it off?

Alot of questions, I know. But they kept going through my mind as I let all that sealant stick to my car and windshield this weekend (Friday, Saturday, and Sunday) and I kept asking myself "How much of this stuff am I wiping off and how much is sticking?" and "Is this 2nd (3rd !) layer really adding depth or am I just wiping off earlier layers and standing still depth-wise?"

Thanks for explaining this things with some empirical scientific evidence, if you have any. And get back to me on this at your leisure as I know it's somewhat lenghty.

 

[Poorboy]

there's no way to tell ..and every application will be different by every person..extra layers usually give thickness and density depending upon application...how much:dunno

 

[HondaMan]

So you're saying nobody who's a dealer or creator of all these fine products actually bothers to measure things like thickness of an acryllic or synthetic layer? Or run tests measuring how long they last, etc?

 

[Poorboy]

So you're saying nobody who's a dealer or creator of all these fine products actually bothers to measure things like thickness of an acryllic or synthetic layer? Or run tests measuring how long they last, etc?

actually we do run tests on how long products will last but to know how much of a product you've left behind is going to vary from application to application.

As for longevity...lab vs reality is two different worlds...in the lab all variables can be controled, in the real world there are so many variables that users become the best judge for their own vehicle and their environment.

 

[HondaMan]

But at some point folks must measure, right? Because otherwise, those products like 1Z Glanz that can't be layered -- if it was just by "feel" you really can't tell it's not layering versus Klasse or EX-P, right?

At some point, someone must have put 4 or 5 coats of a non-layerable on a panel and done the same with a layerable and observed "Gee, this stuff here is still only 1 layer thick...it's like we wiped off the earlier coats...but this thing over here is about 4-5 times as thick, meaning each coat kept building on the others", right?

We take it for granted now, but at some point someone must have measured. Who would want to say "ADD ADDITIONAL COATS" for extra shine and depth and protection if all you were doing was wiping off the earlier coats? You might sell more product initially but you'd have one teed off client base !!

I see where you're coming from, but to me I'm just fascinated by the empirical and testing of these products and any specific data. Obviousley, this board is more into the real-world trial-and-error and subjective analyses regarding color, depth perception, darkening, shine, gloss, etc.

 

[HondaMan]

I read months ago that there was a device to measure paint thickness (maybe that's where I got that 1/160th of an inch for paint coats)...I wonder if that can also measure layers of acryllic, sealants, wax, etc?

I'll try and track it down...not sure if it was here, Autopia, or the Web. Damn, I wish I bookmarked it...!! :ticked

 

[kimwallace]

Obviousley, this board is more into the real-world trial-and-error and subjective analyses regarding color, depth perception, darkening, shine, gloss, etc.

Probably because we all live in the real world and not in a lab. In the real world; everyone's paint is different, the environment is different, the application is different, the removal is different, etc. It comes down to learning which manufactures you can trust and which people you can trust. Eventually the reality is; you use what works best for you

 

[HondaMan]

Right, Kim, I understand...but if I'm putting on sealants for protection -- forget looks, gloss, shine, etc -- then if I spend most of my weekend as I just did putting 3 layers of Klasse and 2 layers of EX-P on cars, then it's kind of reassuring to know that each layer is 20-25 microns or 1/20th of a millimeter or whatever thickness it is of additonal protection on my car.

Obviousley, from a protection standpoint -- my main concern at this point -- the thicker and stronger the better.

I realize I'm kind of splitting hairs here so I'll try and research this on my own. But if anybody has any data points for me on this, please post it here. Thx!

 

[kimwallace]

No Data points on Sealant or wax films but paint films typically run between 5 and 7 mils (one mil = 1000th of an inch or .001 inches) on a new vehicle. To put it in perspective a human hair is approximately 3 mils or .003 thick.
5-7 mils is the total thickness of all paint including primer, base coat and clear coat. The recommended clear coat (repaint) thickness per Dupont is 2-2.4 mils.
The sealants and waxes left on the vehicle after buffing off the residue are definitely a lot less than 1 mil so I don't know if they are measurable.

 

[Poorboy]

no you are not really getting more protection with multiple layers as you did.
The layer closest to the paint does most of the protection. When we test in labs or even when i test most of the time, it's only with one coat. If I do a second it's usually to ensure total coverage. Adding more products and coats at that point will usually only change the optical appearance to suit the user.
If a bird dropping lands on one or twenty coats of a product and is not removed in a timely manor, then it will eat through either one. It the same for a polish to remove the LSP ..it will remove either one or ten coats with the same effort.
The only time I've seen a real difference is when putting on multiple coats of a paste wax...you will definitely start to see the muting of the color and when removing there is literally gobs of it coming off during polishing, and it's much more evident when do it by hand. If you look at the work of let's say Clean Dean or Scottwax, they are out to make money and satisfy the customer at the same time. They don't have time to wait for curing or to do multiple coats of a product...they will put down a sealant in many cases and then either leave it that way or add a carnauba topper for appearance. For the enthusiast that is looking at their car day in and day out searching for flaws and seeing what slight bit of gloss or brightness they can achieve, then putting on many layers is just what an enthusiasts' site is all about.

 

[mg031]

HondaMan, if it will help your curiosity i know that the makers of Rejex advertises that their sealant leaves a coating less than a micron thick so i would imagine that EX-P, Klasse etc. would be about the same more or less....they do not state the exact measurement probably relating to individual application as Poorboy has stated. Paste wax layers i guess would build upon each other and get noticeably thicker maybe at least on a non-daily driver, but i guess this makes sense as polymers are microscopic. ??..

 

[HondaMan]

no you are not really getting more protection with multiple layers as you did....The layer closest to the paint does most of the protection. When we test in labs or even when i test most of the time, it's only with one coat. If I do a second it's usually to ensure total coverage. Adding more products and coats at that point will usually only change the optical appearance to suit the user. If a bird dropping lands on one or twenty coats of a product and is not removed in a timely manor, then it will eat through either one. It the same for a polish to remove the LSP ..it will remove either one or ten coats with the same effort.

Wow, that's intersting...I would have thought that the extra coats gave me extra protection....doing a 2nd layer makes sense in case you miss a spot or go too thin at in a certain area, but from what you're saying, no need to do overkill like I did this past weekend with 3 layers. 2 layers tops, in the future. And I probably didn't need to do 2 layers of EX-P on my wheels, either.

Thanks, Poorboy.

 

[Poorboy]

if you're happy with all the coats then it's not a waste of time at all:bigups

 

[mtodde]

It may be the detailing placebo effect, but I noticed a difference after applying a second coat of EX-P this weekend. It may be that I just evened out the coverage.

If it makes you feel good (and I love detailing my car) it can't be bad!

 

[HondaMan]

No Data points on Sealant or wax films but paint films typically run between 5 and 7 mils (one mil = 1000th of an inch or .001 inches) on a new vehicle. To put it in perspective a human hair is approximately 3 mils or .003 thick. 5-7 mils is the total thickness of all paint including primer, base coat and clear coat. The recommended clear coat (repaint) thickness per Dupont is 2-2.4 mils. The sealants and waxes left on the vehicle after buffing off the residue are definitely a lot less than 1 mil so I don't know if they are measurable.

Thanks, Kim...never heard the phrase "mil" used, must be English measuring slang to compensate for millimeter/micron/nanometer etc in the metric universe.

A millimeter is 1/1,000th of a meter; there are 25.4 mm to an inch. A micron is 1/1,000th of a millimeter. There are 25.4 microns to a mil.

A mm is about 39 mils. So these paint thicknesses you cite are 1/5th - 1/7th of a millimeter.

I agree with your last statement that these sealant layers are probably a few microns in thickness. So you're talking probably 1/1,000th of a millimeter in thickness, give or take. Even if you do a few layers and multiply it, it's still infentisimally small relative to a millimeter.

Sorry for all the math !!

 

[Rob Tomlin]

...
...

Sorry for all the math !!

My head hurts!
:brick

 

[groebuck]

i would say the layering would be pretty hard to measure - Even if something cures for 12 hours are you 100% sure your next application is not removing some of it? I was a coat junkie with UPP back in the day. Now I am lucky to get down two coats of EX-P (my new favorite over DW). i used to detail my car at least once a week now I am lucky to get at it once a month lol and it still looks awesome with a quick PB clean up.

 

[Poorboy]

i would say the layering would be pretty hard to measure - Even if something cures for 12 hours are you 100% sure your next application is not removing some of it? I was a coat junkie with UPP back in the day. Now I am lucky to get down two coats of EX-P (my new favorite over DW). i used to detail my car at least once a week now I am lucky to get at it once a month lol and it still looks awesome with a quick PB clean up.

Hey cakeman you got some extra time on your hands :lol2:

 

[Mr. Clean]

I was wrong in my comment in the other thread...5 years, 7 months, 22 days beats that one. :lmfao

Do you feel a little like Rip Van Winkle? Got to catch up on all the things that went on during your "nap".

 

[black bart]

I guess I'm too practical since multiple layers has no benefit I don't bother.
I never lay on more than 1 coat of sealant but I'm careful to be sure I got total coverage.

I don't subscribe to the second coat theory 1 coat has always been more than adequate for me.

Instead of trying to pile it on in hopes of getting long time protection I believe applying 1 coat every few weeks will protect better than trying to pile it on hoping to get months of protection.