My apologies to "Big Oil"

[CharlesW]

Wrong again. :redface:
I fully expected the gas prices to go up over the holidays, but I was totally wrong. They actually continued to go down in this area.
We still have a big spread which is somewhat puzzling, but overall, the prices are in the $1.45 to $1.47 range. Some stations are still in the $1.60 area with a few as high as $1.67.
I have even heard talk that it might get back down to $1 a gallon in the next few months.
One thing that has happened with "cheap" oil is the Ethanol suppliers are having major financial problems.
From everything I have read, Ethanol was never cost efficient and the government help with subsidies and tax breaks was all that kept them afloat anyway.
Several have shelved plans for new facilities and I think a few have declared bankruptcy.
Just what we needed, another hit to the economy.

 

[Ronkh]

Looks like we may have to give "big oil" a bail out plan.

 

[Bert]

From everything I have read, Ethanol was never cost efficient

I have read the same thing. It seems to make Ethanol, you have to heat the corn and other ingredients to a pretty high temperature for a decent amount of time and that requires a fair amount of natural gas, heating oil or electricity to achieve. Similar to how distilleries use quite a bit of energy to heat the mash to make whiskey. Kind of ironic that a product touted as being able to replace fossil fuels requires a large amount of fossil fuels to make.

To make Ethanol that truly does replace fossil fuels would require electricy made from solar or wind or possibibly even nuclear.

 

[black bart]

My daughter owns some farm ground that Investors wanted to buy for a ethanol plant.
It has a rail road running through the property and a natural gas line and plenty of water.
Also easy access to the Interstate system so it was Ideal location but I think the deal is not going through now.

I never did think it was a good idea to use our food to run our vehicles.
Farmers raising hogs had to pay more for corn to feed their hogs so meat prices was up.

Chickens eggs breakfast food all was up as a result of higher corn prices.

We need to develop hydrogen fuel cell cars and get away from oil.

 

[CharlesW]

We need to develop hydrogen fuel cell cars and get away from oil.

While I don't know that hydrogen fuel cell vehicles are the answer, I do agree that we need to develop some alternate energy sources.
I do think many people are/were working towards that, but I worry that the cheap oil will lull us back into our previous complacency.
From everything I have read, it is a simple fact that we will eventually deplete the world oil reserves. Very likely, much sooner than we realize.
As more and more countries become highly mechanized, the oil requirement is growing unbelievably fast.
I sure don't have the answer, but at least I realize there is a problem.

 

[blk45]

I don't think you owe them an apology at all Charles. OPEC is doing everything in their power to get the prices jacked back up. They cut 2.2 million bpd to try and accomplish this. Even though we are using more fuel now, the prices aren't going up because the economy and market are in the toilet. Gas actually went from 1.59 (regular) back up to 1.61 here, but has dropped back down to the 1.56-1.58 range. The last thing that we owe those greedy sobs is an apology.

 

[sjr]

I'll never understand why we need opec oil. Take it from someone whos spent six years working for an oil field services company. There are formations so rich in oil at the moment in the U.S. that at full consumption would take a hundred plus years to deplete. The Atoka, granite wash in western Oklahoma, barnett Shale that starts just outside of dallas and spreads west to up around odessa and north into Arkansas up past Fort Smith area, New fields just discovered in the Dakotas and Utah, not to mention the Wyomings just a few that come to mind off the top of my head.

 

[Bunky]

I'll never understand why we need opec oil. Take it from someone whos spent six years working for an oil field services company. There are formations so rich in oil at the moment in the U.S. that at full consumption would take a hundred plus years to deplete. The Atoka, granite wash in western Oklahoma, barnett Shale that starts just outside of dallas and spreads west to up around odessa and north into Arkansas up past Fort Smith area, New fields just discovered in the Dakotas and Utah, not to mention the Wyomings just a few that come to mind off the top of my head.

The oil companies have rights to drill on federal land that they are not doing...yet they wanted to drill offshore. I think the oil companies should fund a lot of the automaker bailout. I am sure they can loan then $25 billion just from profits.

I think we need to end ethanol subsidies. From what I read, it is not efficient (some argue it takes more energy to make it). This is just an agricultural welfare program.

 

[blk45]

The oil companies have rights to drill on federal land that they are not doing...yet they wanted to drill offshore. I think the oil companies should fund a lot of the automaker bailout. I am sure they can loan then $25 billion just from profits.

I think we need to end ethanol subsidies. From what I read, it is not efficient (some argue it takes more energy to make it). This is just an agricultural welfare program.

It makes you wonder if the strategy is to "save" the oil that we have, so when the rest of the world runs out, we will be in good shape? I've never understood this situation.

Agreed. What a waste. Of all of the other solutions to get behind, they choose ethanol. It is a bad choice all the way around. It jacked the price of food up, it doesn't get the same output per gallon, etc. Another bonehead decision by the powers that be. It would be amazing how good our economy would be and how efficient this country could be if the decision makers were people with common sense that used logistics instead of a hidden agenda (their wallet).

 

[dave40co]

It makes you wonder if the strategy is to "save" the oil that we have, so when the rest of the world runs out, we will be in good shape? I've never understood this situation.

Agreed. What a waste. Of all of the other solutions to get behind, they choose ethanol. It is a bad choice all the way around. It jacked the price of food up, it doesn't get the same output per gallon, etc. Another bonehead decision by the powers that be. It would be amazing how good our economy would be and how efficient this country could be if the decision makers were people with common sense that used logistics instead of a hidden agenda (their wallet).

Well said!

 

[heatgain]

Our leaders are only as wise and full of common sense as the people that vote for them.

 

[CharlesW]

Our leaders are only as wise and full of common sense as the people that vote for them.

That certainly explains why we are in such a mess.

 

[TiredNGrouchy]

I think we need to end ethanol subsidies. From what I read, it is not efficient (some argue it takes more energy to make it). This is just an agricultural welfare program.

Agree 100%. Until recent improvements, the net energy balance of ethanol was negative - it took more energy to product and distribute a gallon of ethanol than that gallon of ethanol could produce. I read in a recent issue of Road & Track that it is now slightly positive. It now only takes 97% of the energy in a gallon of ethanol to produce it and distribute it. Another way to look at it is to say that you get 3% more energy out than you put in. Conventionally produced fossil fuels have the highest energy balance, you get 600% more energy out than you put in. Oil from tar sands and shale require more energy inputs so their energy balance is lower - much lower.

Hydrogen and fuel cells by themselves are NOT the answer to our country's energy problem. Hydrogen is an energy CARRIER, not an energy SOURCE. It's scary that so many people cannot grasp this simple concept, guess they never even had high school chemistry.