In a recent thread somebody had problems with their PC leaving micromarring behind - this was always a big issue for me regarding DA polishers...on dark colors with soft clears, micromarring could rear it's ugly head. Rotary solves this problem by rolling the abrasives around rather than gouging them back and forth...and also breaks them down better, which is why it corrects better and finishes down better. So I'm wondering if a forced rotation (alah the recent Flex hype) solves the micromarring probem, but it's certainly not a given considering the rotational speed is minimal relative to the osolating speed???
Micromarring...DA vs Forced Rotation
- Thread starter RAG
- Start date
a.k.a. Patrick
New member
Ry, good to see you posting again! I have a rather extensive thread posted on a another forum explaining my recent issues, and when I have some more time, i will try to get them up here. But as you and others I have spoken to on the phone have conveyed to me, theres really nothing like rotary correction (vs UDM). And, I just need to break down and get one. Now who has the time to teach me "their" way!? I'd really like to learn from you, Chris (spoiledman) or Andrew (AMD) up in Santa Barbara........
Im not certain the Flex is the answer. I have a feeling, it is to the UDM, as the UDM is to the PC. A step ahead, but still not a Rotary......
Maybe the oscillation is actually a hindrance??
Im not certain the Flex is the answer. I have a feeling, it is to the UDM, as the UDM is to the PC. A step ahead, but still not a Rotary......
Maybe the oscillation is actually a hindrance??
When I had employees, I almost always had them use a PC, and it served us well in most cases. But yes, there's nothing like an actual rotary for high-volume/professional use, though it sounds like the Flex is a great option for hobbiest detailers. If you're ever my way, I'll show you what I know regarding the rotary...and in return you can show me some of your favorite products I haven't yet tried.
imported_agentf11
New member
If this is an issue you may want to choose a machine that spins faster and orbits less. I have never had an issue with my Makita. It seems to do "almost" everything my Rotary does but saves me a lot of time when it comes to cleanup since it does not splatter like a rotary does and does not require me to go over any areas with a ROB to guarentee I have no holograms when the sun hits it at the right angle.
I rarely get holograms with my rotary but still like to make a pass with my ROB as a safeguard. This new machine also prevents this step.
I have not used a Flex yet so cannot comment on how it functions.
Makita BO6040
Variable speed control dial (1,600 - 5,800 OPM; 180 - 670 RPM) for various applications
Flex
Speed without load 160-480 rpm
Orbit (stroke length) 8 mm or 0.31 inches
I rarely get holograms with my rotary but still like to make a pass with my ROB as a safeguard. This new machine also prevents this step.
I have not used a Flex yet so cannot comment on how it functions.
Makita BO6040
Variable speed control dial (1,600 - 5,800 OPM; 180 - 670 RPM) for various applications
Flex
Speed without load 160-480 rpm
Orbit (stroke length) 8 mm or 0.31 inches
imported_Conan777
New member
I think I will probably buy a Flex soon and try it with my Menz products. I'm just torn between the forced rotation orbitals and a good ol Rotary myself :nixweiss . Trying to get a local Autopian to let me demo his Flex and a Rotary.
Hey Patrick! Nice to see a fellow Aziner....:hifive:
Hey Patrick! Nice to see a fellow Aziner....:hifive:
a.k.a. Patrick
New member
Conan777 said:
:grinno: :werd:
wannafbody
wannafbody
I think there are a couple factors. The PC has a large throw. That means the abrasive moves across a somewhat large distance. The PC also has a relatively low OPM. If the abrasive isn't fully broken down that means that it micromars the paint. Now a rotary has enough friction to break down an abrasive but may leave some circular micromarring(hollogramming) depending on the abrasive size and the pad used. The hybrid units like the Flex have more power which does a better job of braking down the abrasive but also has an orbital motion to reduce the chance of hollogramming-kind of the best of both worlds. The Ridgid 2611 is more powerful than a PC and has two different orbit sizes the larger for more aggressive polishing and the smaller for final polishing. Also the skill level of the user impacts the final results as does the hardness of the clearcoat.
In response to all the above posts...thank you. And I just might have to recommend the flex or makita to newbies with black paint rather than a PC...but to all those that plan on doing a lot of polishing and maybe don't have jet black paint so they won't have an issue with buffer swirls...I will say that learning how to use a rotary when kept at a slow speed like 1000RPMs is extremely easy and still works must faster than a DA; I would guess a rotary at 1000 probably cuts equivalent to a flex on full speed...
Regarding the splatter...I never get any...I got a little splatter when I first learned and when using super-porous pads like the yellow cutting foam with too much product, but splatter is really not an issue with the rotary once you get the hang of it (until then you can always just keep the speed low). Seriously, a rotary at 1K is as easy as pie.
Maybe Scottwax can (or has alreay) comment on learning to use the rotary, as I know he was first a DA guy?
Regarding the splatter...I never get any...I got a little splatter when I first learned and when using super-porous pads like the yellow cutting foam with too much product, but splatter is really not an issue with the rotary once you get the hang of it (until then you can always just keep the speed low). Seriously, a rotary at 1K is as easy as pie.
Maybe Scottwax can (or has alreay) comment on learning to use the rotary, as I know he was first a DA guy?
Junebug
JAFO
Before I tried the rotary, I thought it would eat the paint off in my hands LOL! But, RAG is right, 1000 rpm and it feels like it's barely running. ONE thing though - keep the pad as flat as you can, I know after a few times you'll want to get that hard to reach spot so you tip up on the edge of the pad- don't do it, you'll hate yourself in about 5 seconds. Other than that, take it easy, don't death grip the handle, breathe, keep your work to a 2' x 2' section at a time and go for it.
SpoiledMan
New member
Pat, we need to have a detail day......... I'll teach.
Richard@BlackWOW
New member
Well my 2cents in all this is that it DEPENDS on your chosen system. When I was using strictly Meguiar's products and pads in the past, I had to deal with micromarring on soft paints, but that isn't the case for me these days. This past weekend at my open garage clinic, we had a 2007 AMG CLS 63---$95K for the base model! Now I'm not certain this paint had Ceramiclear but I was under the impression that all Mercedes after 2002 or so had this super hard clear coat, and that it wouldn't be easily polished with a PC.
Anyhow, one of the participants tried his PC with some Menzerna polishes and had no effect on the swirls. I pulled out the LC Orange pad and my Prima Swirl, and one pass considerably improved the finish, and a second pass made it nearly perfect.
In sun, swirls visible
And Not in test spot
Another instance there was a 2004 Mitsubishi white Lancer Evolution. I think this was single stage as the finish was cloudy.
Two passes of Swirl--you can see the rectangular area that is a noticeably different shade of white under the light here.
With the Prima system, it's all about the rotation of the PC to break down the diminishing abrasives, not the pressure. It works more like using a rotary though a bit slower. I still prefer to use the Makita whenever possible, and I use the same LC pads and Prima polish, and the only paint I've ever had any issue with was this weekend when a MINI showed up with a painted on clear bra--similar or maybe it was.. ArmorCoat.
That thing was cloudy, and couldn't be polished with either the rotary or the PC.
Anyhow, one of the participants tried his PC with some Menzerna polishes and had no effect on the swirls. I pulled out the LC Orange pad and my Prima Swirl, and one pass considerably improved the finish, and a second pass made it nearly perfect.
In sun, swirls visible
And Not in test spot
Another instance there was a 2004 Mitsubishi white Lancer Evolution. I think this was single stage as the finish was cloudy.
Two passes of Swirl--you can see the rectangular area that is a noticeably different shade of white under the light here.
With the Prima system, it's all about the rotation of the PC to break down the diminishing abrasives, not the pressure. It works more like using a rotary though a bit slower. I still prefer to use the Makita whenever possible, and I use the same LC pads and Prima polish, and the only paint I've ever had any issue with was this weekend when a MINI showed up with a painted on clear bra--similar or maybe it was.. ArmorCoat.
That thing was cloudy, and couldn't be polished with either the rotary or the PC.
a.k.a. Patrick
New member
SpoiledMan said:Pat, we need to have a detail day......... I'll teach.
Hey Im friggin serious......I need to get a rotary and get moving here....I would appreciate any passed knowledge......
Richard@BlackWOW
New member
Well I started my free weekend clinics this past Saturday again at my shop in Orange County--next open one will be in March since I'm hosting private clinics in February..of course, I'm not SpoiledMan either.....
a.k.a. Patrick said:
SpoiledMan
New member
a.k.a. Patrick said:
Pat, do you have any idea which machine you'd like to purchase? It will probably help to get a couple in your hands first.
Richard, you might have just what we're looking for. YOUR SHOP!
Richard@BlackWOW
New member
I have no problem doing an Autopian Detail day at the shop--just need to pick a date and we can do a clinic with various "stars". Maybe get Joe (Superior Shine) to stop by--he's always a blast.
I've got PC's, UDM, little Metabo 3" polisher, Makita RB here. I'm sure someone could bring a Cyclo and some other tools to round out the possible tool selection for people to play with.
Richard
I've got PC's, UDM, little Metabo 3" polisher, Makita RB here. I'm sure someone could bring a Cyclo and some other tools to round out the possible tool selection for people to play with.
Richard
SpoiledMan said:Pat, do you have any idea which machine you'd like to purchase? It will probably help to get a couple in your hands first.
Richard, you might have just what we're looking for. YOUR SHOP!
SpoiledMan
New member
OctaneGuy said:
I'd like to wait until I get my FLEX in hand sometime next month to call a date. I can bring a B&D rotary, Metabo and Hitachi as well as the Dynabrade attachment, Cyclo, FLEX and PC DA. I'll also bring my bag of trix(polishes/compounds) to play with as well.
Know anybody with a hammered car that we can work on? New thread perhaps?