I have pure #1 Brazilian Carnauba. Teach me how to make a wax!

P

Porter

New member
Greetings all, this is my first post on Autopia.



Like many people, I was recently intrigued by the absurd cost of the high end Zymol waxes. I have used a number of different products in the past including Mothers, Zaino, Zymol, etc. so I began to wonder what in the world could cause these Zymol formulations to be so expensive. I mean, it's car wax, not rocket science.



So I looked a little deeper, and the main factor that I can see as a differentiator in these products is Carnauba content... I believe getting as high as 80% for the ultra-expensive versions.



So I thought to myself, why not get some real carnauba from a distributor and play with some formulations myself? I'm a bit of a hands-on type of guy.



So I have a shipment of rock hard 100% pure #1 Brazilian Carnauba wax on the way as we speak. Obviously pure Carnauba has the consistency of concrete, and it will require heating to its melting point (86deg Celsius) and mixture with some kind of solvent to produce a usable wax product.



Obviously as it dries, largely pure Carnauba will become quite hard, so I will be doing small sections and probably using an orbital buffer to even the wax, then hand buff for shine.





Does anyone know what kind of solvent can be mixed with pure Carnauba that will produce a hard paste result that can be applied to paint, yet is safe for the finish on an automobile?



I've done a little research, and the average solvents used in the furniture polishing industry where Carnauba is prevalent seem to be far too caustic... things like paint thinner (gack!), napthla, turpentine, mineral spirits, etc etc.





Yes, I know... I'm a freak. Any thoughts on this project or advice for me?



:D :D



-Porter
 
Excellent... mineral spirits won't strip the paint or cause damage to the finish? Mineral spirits are odorless I believe... :D



:wavey
 
jcattarulla said:
Good for you! A true pioneer!

Where did you order your "100% pure Carnauba" from?
Click to expand...



Why, do you want to buy some? ;) LOL, let me see if this stuff works well... if it does, I may start a side business selling the finished product for cheap. If it doesn't, I'll release the details for all and sundry so someone else can improve on it and build the better mousetrap. :D
 
Does anyone else have any thoughts re: a solvent to use? I'll probably refrain from putting coconut and banana oil in like the fancy brands... I don't need it to smell like a Pina Colada or suntan lotion...
 
ejant said:
:welcome to Autopia.



As you say high end carnauba are rock hard. I think you'll find the directions that come with the wax will tell you to appy it by using your hand, this is to warm the wax.
Click to expand...





I don't think you're understanding... this isn't a high end carnauba based product...



This is pure 100% Carnauba wax, direct from the tree. It has the consistency of concrete and melts around 180 degrees F.



I'm trying to figure out what to mix with it once melted so that it produces a paste with a much lower melting point, yet won't damage the paint.



I'm going to have to melt it up in a double boiler and then stir in the solvent to whatever consistency I need... I'm just trying to figure out a solvent. :D :D



....somebody shoot me, my GF thinks I'm nuts.
 
Good luck. There's more to making it than adding a solvent. I'd also be careful at adding a solvent to something that's 180º+, since (depending on the solvent), it may combust.



Other additives will be needed to allow it to spread.



I think there's a chemistry website around somewhere that has instructions for making your own wax. Maybe a google search?
 
Porter said:
I'm trying to figure out what to mix with it once melted so that it produces a paste with a much lower melting point, yet won't damage the paint.
Click to expand...

OK, you're trying to build a better/different mousetrap. Why use a solvent to make it a liquid or paste like all the other waxes? I'm having this vision: You do something-or-other to it. Then you sell it in a little fondue pot or butter-warmer dish. So when an Autopian wants to detail, they just bring out the fondue pot, plop in a cube of Porter's Pure Carnauba to the melting point, and brushes it on the paintwork.



BTW, you can tell I'm kidding, right? :D
 
I thinks she's right:D your dealing with stuff companies build labs to make and test...I wish you good luck and wear protective gear at all times:xyxthumbs
 
Be careful.......



One thing to note, is that carnuba content has little to do with durability. Having 100% or even close to 100 % carnuba is impossible, the formulation would be too hard to work with. A lot of company's use the term 80% pure carnuba........and what it means is that part of the formulation that is wax, is 80% pure. Most formulations have anwhere from 1-15% carnuba BY VOLUME.



Carnuba wax is added to a formulation typically in flakes or pellet form. One way is to melt it and add it to a formulation of solvents to keep it fluid. I wouldn't suggest doing this at home as most solvents are flammible and have low flashpoints.



In addition to carnuba wax and solvents, there are typically other ingredients too. Parafin, and/or polyethylene wax is added to increase durability, and provide water beading. Also, an oil is needed for shine, and depending on what oil is used, an emulsifier might be needed to keep the product from separating.



If you want to mix chemicals, I would start with glazes, that provide shine, and maybe some cleaning ability with no protection. Once you get that down, then figure out how to add wax for protection.....



Good luck and wear your safety glasses........



DK
 
I can really add nothing concrete to this thread other than it sounds really interesting. I did a quick search and came across a list of the zymol products and their contents. Looks like they all contain various ethers (probably to soften the carnauba) and various oils either for frangrance or keeping the wax softer/spreadable at a lower temp.



http://www.sportscarworld.ltd.uk/main_content/usersguide.htm#destiny



One thing is for sure, with a really high carauba content, it's going to be tough to spread and god help you if it hardens on your paint before you can buff it off.



I'd be interested in what happens.....keep us posted.



Michael
 
Just for fun...Flake it, melt it and add it to some warmed up #26 liquid wax (or equivalent). It already has all the solvents built in...You'll just increase the Carnauba content.



Add enough and it'll dry into a paste. :D



Porter-Meguiar's #27 DeeeeLuxe Maxy-Wax!
 
Welcome to Autopia Porter! :wavey



This certainly is an ambitious project! :bow



It might help to dig up the MSDS information of various waxes. 3M has theirs on their product pages. There's a link to these pages in one of the threads in my sig to help. I've seen the Meguiar's MSDS for some of their waxes like #26 paste I think on some other general websites. Try a web search.



I've seen ingredients like mineral oil and light, medium and heavy naptha I believe. Beeswax is something else I've seen put into waxes. Silicones similar to those in QDs too maybe? Just guessing.



Anyway, good luck and be careful! :)
 
Detailking is right, just melting the block of solids into liquid and adding your solvent won't work. (I know I've done it) What will happen is as soon as you add your cool solvent to the hot wax you'll form a wax cake at the top.:o :eek:



What you'll need to do is brake the block down into flakes first and then add them to your solvent and blend vigrously. Consider high shear mixing equipment......if you live in SoCal I have a Silverson demo unit and we can do some tests:D using it.



You might also want to play with making a liquid wax although my guess would be that it would have a low wax content. In this case you would start with water and add your flaked wax and oils to it. You would also add an surfactant/emulsifier to help evenly disperse the wax flakes and oil throughout the water. Then add your solvents until an emulsion is formed. Again this would require vigorous mixing.



Making a good wax really can take a long time especially if your doing it from scratch to determine how much solvents are required. I've seen many of the smaller wax shops purchase premade wax blends from a supplier and then add their own special ingredients to make it their own.



Either way good luck and I'm sure if you put the time and effort you will be successful.
 
DETAILKING said:
Be careful.......



One thing to note, is that carnuba content has little to do with durability. Having 100% or even close to 100 % carnuba is impossible, the formulation would be too hard to work with. A lot of company's use the term 80% pure carnuba........and what it means is that part of the formulation that is wax, is 80% pure. Most formulations have anwhere from 1-15% carnuba BY VOLUME.



Carnuba wax is added to a formulation typically in flakes or pellet form. One way is to melt it and add it to a formulation of solvents to keep it fluid. I wouldn't suggest doing this at home as most solvents are flammible and have low flashpoints.



In addition to carnuba wax and solvents, there are typically other ingredients too. Parafin, and/or polyethylene wax is added to increase durability, and provide water beading. Also, an oil is needed for shine, and depending on what oil is used, an emulsifier might be needed to keep the product from separating.



If you want to mix chemicals, I would start with glazes, that provide shine, and maybe some cleaning ability with no protection. Once you get that down, then figure out how to add wax for protection.....



Good luck and wear your safety glasses........



DK
Click to expand...





I'm taking all that to heart.



On the content issue, the Estate Glazes list upwards of 50% Carnauba by volume, as in the case of this one:



Concoursâ„¢: Ingredients/Contains White and Yellow Carnauba Wax 47% by volume (90% White, 10% Yellow), Montan Oil, Coconut Oil, Banana Oil, Cinnamon Oil, Propolis (derived from Bees), Cetyl Esters, Cetyl Cocoamide (derived from coconut oil) and FD&C Yellow #5.





The higher end waxes ($$$) get up to 75 and 80% by volume. I think my first effort will be to get some good carnauba based liquid wax and add a good amount of Carnauba to it to make a paste. We'll see how that turns out.



Then I'll make a pure Carnauba paste and I'll keep you guys posted. :D
 
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