I guess I need a form for written estimates

S

Scottwax

New member
I got an e-mail from the owner of a supercharged '05 Viper asking about a detail. I send him back this reply:



I'd have to see your car to give you a reasonably accurate estimate, but a basic detail (full interior cleaning and protection, wash/clay/1 polishing step and wax or sealant would be $150. Any additional needed polishing steps would be extra...
Click to expand...



I make an appointment with him to see the car. The back half isn't too bad, light holograms and spider swirls. From the doors up it was pretty bad. Deeper holograms and spider swirls, pigtails, RIDS, etc. I gave him a rough estimate "assuming I can get the swirls out in about 6 hours". He then said something about polishing the wheels and I repeated "assuming it only takes about 6 hours". I am postive I told him if it took longer it would cost more. I also pointed out a few areas that probably wouldn't come out 100%.



Anyway, I went out yesterday to work on the car. As expected, the trunk lid and passenger rear fender were pretty easy to work. Once I got to the passenger door, the paint was noticably harder. I was using Meguiars #105 and had to switch from a yellow foam Meguiars polishing pad to an American Buffing white wool pad and it was taking several passes to really make a dent in the swirls. The hood was even tougher. The tops of the fenders and the hood bulge weren't too bad but the area in between was a nightmare. The louvers on the hood were just to risky to try to run the buffer into them so I worked on those by had.



After about 2 1/2 hours, I give the customer a call to let him know it might end up taking more than a day to complete the car. He asks if the cost would be more. Of course it would. He then says "you've already gone up on the original estimate of $150" and I explained to him (and thought it should already be clear based on the e-mail I sent him) that the price was for a basic detail that only includes 1 polishing step and no way would the swirls come out with just one step. He then says "well, you looked at the car and gave me a price" and I said that was based on 6 hours of work and I know I mentioned that more than once. I told him there is no way to really know for sure until you start buffing a car. Just like a brake job. You get quoted for a basic brake job (turn the rotors, replace pads, repack wheel bearings) but once the wheels come off there might be more issues that need to be addressed at a higher cost. He goes on about others quoted him $150 to take out the swirls and completely detail the car and Classic (a body shop I guess?) said they'd take out all the swirls and put another coat of clear on the car for $600 and he certainly wasn't going to pay me that much if all I did was polish it. :wall



He also seemed upset that I wasn't going to get the car 100% perfect. I know damn well I would never, ever promise someone their car will be 100% defect and swirl free. He then goes on about the swirls aren't all the way through the clear coat. I told him I agreed but that there is a limit to how much clear you can safely remove and if the swirls are deeper than that you have to live with them. I was getting the impression that no matter what I did to his car he'd find a way to either not pay me at all or just pay me the original rough estimate especially after he said "if you can't get it perfect for the price you said I'll have someone else do the work".



At that point I told him I wasn't going to finish the car then. I'd go back over the areas I compouned to make sure I didn't leave any rotary swirls and then pack up my stuff and leave. Told him to look over the car on the trunk lid, passenger side and hood and if he liked what he saw and wanted me to finish the car I would but not unless we came to an agreement on price.



JoshVette has it right. Quote the customer at least a 10 hour price on a correction detail. At the very least, that weeds out the people who don't understand what it takes to correct a car. I am going to work up an estimate form that says prices are based on a 10 hour minimum and the price may change to reflect the actual time since all paint is different and some take longer to correct.



I did take some pictures so if the guy tries to badmouth me on any Viper forums I can at least show what I did. As you can see it was pretty rough (the camera really didn't pick up some of the lighter holograms in the befores) and there is no way he can say I left it worse than it was before I started.



Befores:



30722005_Dodge_Viper_before1.jpg




30722005_Dodge_Viper_before2.jpg




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30722005_Dodge_Viper_before4.jpg




30722005_Dodge_Viper_before5.jpg




30722005_Dodge_Viper_before6.jpg




#105/foam-2 passes



30722005_Dodge_Viper_105_1.jpg




#105/wool-5 passses



30722005_Dodge_Viper_105_2.jpg




#105, OPII/foam, Ultrafina



30722005_Dodge_Viper_105_OP_UF_1.jpg




30722005_Dodge_Viper_105_OP_UF_2.jpg




30722005_Dodge_Viper_105_OP_UF_3.jpg




30722005_Dodge_Viper_105_OP_UF_4.jpg
 
My body shop quotes me high, in the event it takes a few tries to get the paint to match, etc... then if i'm satisfyied with that price he does the work. And many times its less than originally quoted.. but a few times it was the quote. Much easier to go down, rather than up in price.



Too bad the viper owner doesn't know ur reputation here on the forum..or he would have been THRILLED to have you work on his car.



I know that I would be.
 
I was recommended to him by someone on a Viper board so he is at least aware of who I am. He apparently has no idea what it costs to have a black car in poor condition polished out. I have no idea how "Classic" can completely buff out his car 100% swirl free AND put on more clear coat for $600 total. Either he is misunderstanding what they are going to do or they are going to jack his car pretty bad.
 
Scott- those holograms are from the last $150 paint correction he had done from one of those other "offers". It sucks to waist time and probably a full day but you did the right thing to get the heck out of there. Those are the customers that will never be happy and always try to pay less than the original quote.



I have often wondered what makes these poeple the way they are. The last time this happened to me, the customer didnt want to pay me because the engine wasn't detailed. Even though it wasn't listed and I told him I wasn't going to clean the engine.
 
I'm sorry to hear this, Scott. It seems as though he doesn't value this work very highly and that's part of the problem. I think it was Mike Phillips who said "Evaluate the customer first, and then the paint."
 
fergnation said:
Scott- those holograms are from the last $150 paint correction he had done from one of those other "offers".
Click to expand...



Oh, I completely agree about that. Don't remember if I pointed that out to him or not though.



Holden_C04-I probably spent a good 20-30 minutes talking to him about the car. My guess is he never really checked around to find out what correction details cost.
 
i agree with your above post scott. really too bad as it seems this guy really wants perfection and a high class job. as u stated though, he has no idea what that truly means. looks like it's his loss, and anyone that reads into the situation will find the same. lets just hope people actually do read into the situation to understand what happened
 
Sorry to hear about your bad experience! We all have those. You can't make everyone happy! I just had one last week try to argue with me about the original estimate after I clearly said from the very beginning that this phone estimate is based on my inspection of the vehicle. I should have known from the beginning that she would be a problem when she told me someone else quoted her $65 to do a job that I quoted her $130 over the phone. Oh well, when you get that sheet written up I'd love to see it if you don't mind sharing.
 
For $150, he should have only expected a wash and quick wax with no polishing.



The place that said they would polish it 100% and then clear it is full of bull. If they are going to polish it 100%, then why would they need to clear it. I have never heard of anyone clearing over a car like this in the 20 years of doing this. If a bodyshop were going to clear the car, then the bill would be over $3000. Either the customer is lying or the shop is.



The only person he should be badmouthing is himself and the last person he had polish it because he can not afford good work.



He could have had it perfect if only he would step it up and pay you extra. His loss!
 
The shop is F.O.S. when they say extra layer of clear they are probably going to hit it with a filler glaze and one of the many "5 year" sealants on the market.



From the looks of it, 600 would be a fair price just to correct and seal.
 
I was an HVAC/refrigeration/food equipment contractor for 20 years in my past life. I started out charging by the hour for repairs and ran into some problems like you're having now. I changed to a flat-rate system based on my past experiences in repair. It took me a while before I had enough experience behind me to make-up prices that would account for an "average" amount of time, taking into account the minimum and maximum times it would take me to do a certain repair. I priced each flat-rate repair price based on a time that would take a bit longer than average, then added a bit of time. In other words, the price for a repair in my BOOK were higher than the repair would cost the customer if I had charged by the hour.

I learned this method when I'd take my service trucks in for repair. The auto mechanics had a BOOK that told them what to charge for repairs based on an hourly rate. For example, to change an alternator, THE BOOK said 3 hours labor plus the part = $275.00. I asked "What if it takes a shorter amount of time?"

Mechanic, "THE BOOK says 275.00, so that's what it'll cost you."

Of course they did it in a shorter amount of time, yet it cost me $275.00 anyway.

No arguing with THE BOOK.

So I made up my own BOOK, a large 3 ring binder, printed nicely, with repairs listed and the flat rate price charged for the repair. Although the prices listed in the BOOK were higher than an hourly rate would have cost the customer, the customers were much happier knowing what it would cost them before the work was done.

An hourly rate makes sense to the mechanic/serviceman/detailer, but customers are happier to know the price going in.

To the customer, an hourly rate would be like paying $200 to an airline for flying them from point A to point B. While they were de-planing at point B, the pilot would stop them on the ramp and say, "We ran into some headwinds in the Carolinas so it took a little longer to fly here, so we must charge you $75.00 more." Also, for an hourly rate, a better (faster) mechanic would charge less for a job than a slower, less efficient mechanic, or a rookie mechanic. Seems unfair, no?

The customers were happy paying a higher price (as compared to an hourly rate), and I was happy making more money than before. It was a win-win situation.

No arguing with THE BOOK.

Some sort of variation on this theme might work for you, Scott. Just an idea.
 
^^ I've heard about the book approach before and I have to say that although it may be initially off-putting to a customer, it does make a whole lot of sense in the end. It also leaves a hassle free transaction when it is all said and done.



Frankly, this is not good practice, I might try and look up "Classic" and figure out what is going on. You don't want to run into an issue like this in the future. That way, the next time someone pull a "Classic" you can say "You should probably go there."
 
Sorry to hear about your experience with this customer. If he only knew what all of us here on Autopia know. I say let him take it somewhere else and then see how long it takes him to call you back to fix the other place's "detail" work....hehe!



Good luck with it!
 
Wow that door was pretty bad. He's the kind of guy that wouldnt be happy with any result. Good call to walk!
 
Sorry to hear Scott, glad you walked away from it though.



You're right about me estimating high, I typically estimate like you said on an 8-10 hour price that way I'm covered if it really does take 10 hours and the client's not surprised with a $700 bill and if I go under they're happy it wasn't quite as much as I said it would be..... plus like you said it really weeds out the one's who aren't serious about their cars.



Nice move.

Josh
 
Good move to post here in case the guy bashes you elsewhere.



If he bashes and this link pops up on a Viper forum, know this:



$150 is a RIDICULOUSLY LOW PRICE! That is a $500-600 job any day of he week.







I post my price on my site only to filter out the price shoppers. It works for me.
 
scott bottom line is on here from what i see of you. your prices are more then fair. your not out there making millions. your the man among men who do this job for a living. you always have the right things to say, your work is great, truly your a class act. no hype, just a damn good detailer. i think you did whats right! to be honest me personally i charge by the car now. all my correction work is charge by the job. so when someone contacts me i tell them i will meet with them and go threw the normal stuff like what they exspect what i can do, and so on. at that time i tell them a price. i been at it long enough now to know how long it will take for me to do something. there were times when the job ran more then what i told the customer but then it becomes my loss. in the same aspect i feel thankfull to be doing something i love for a living. scott whatever happens just remember you truley are a class act! a in the end your the guy that will always make it! best of luck
 
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