How important to clay before polish?

H

hobie1

New member
Hi - first post...



I have a dark blue (almost black) new car that has major buffer swirls from a dealer-contracted local "detailer". We're talking a holographic light show as you walk around the car, end to end and top to bottom.



I do not have the experience to correct this, so have been talking to several local detail businesses in the area.



One of them really believes in using clay (which I agree w/ from my research) before polishing and waxing. He really emphasizes the damage new cars get from "rail dust" during rail shipping. However, he doesn't seem to have many customers (can take my car anytime this week), and the few photos he had of jobs he'd done were unimpressive.



The other feels it is unnecessary for him to clay my car before he polishes it. He feels the polishing will remove the paint impurities. HIS shop is booked at least a week out, and he says he specializes in black cars. He said the local Lexus dealer sends him their cars for detailing, and I saw a nice muscle car at his shop (swirled like mine) that someone had brought him to correct (he hadn't worked on it yet). He also had stacks of pictures, including a lot of show cars, of work he supposedly had done.



I'm leaning heavily toward guy #2, but after reading a number of detailing forums, question his decision not to clay first.



Any feedback on this?



Any other ideas on how to find/choose a detailer to correct these swirls?



Thanks
 
I always think you should clay first, however, if the car has been clayed and buffed by the dealership within the last month or two, claying again may not be necessary; this guy is probably considering this. However, if rust contamination is present (you can feel it with your hand in a plastic bag), then claying is the only way to go, as to remove rust contamination requires with a buffer alone requires one to be super aggressive, which is completely uncalled for (probably what the dealership did to your car in the first place).



To say they specialize in black paint is a big statement. As long as they back their work up and can assure you they'll do what it takes to make the job right (zero halograms), then I like #2. You're probably looking at $200-$300; how much did they say?
 
Oh yeah, after you pick it up, be sure to pull it into direct sunlight to inspect for halograms. And if you want to make sure they aren't covering any potential halograms, take a spray bottle with a 50/50 solution of isopropal alcohol and water, mist an area, and wipe off (this will remove fillers).
 
RAG said:
I always think you should clay first, however, if the car has been clayed and buffed by the dealership within the last month or two, claying again may not be necessary; this guy is probably considering this. However, if rust contamination is present (you can feel it with your hand in a plastic bag), then claying is the only way to go, as to remove rust contamination requires with a buffer alone requires one to be super aggressive, which is completely uncalled for (probably what the dealership did to your car in the first place).



To say they specialize in black paint is a big statement. As long as they back their work up and can assure you they'll do what it takes to make the job right (zero halograms), then I like #2. You're probably looking at $200-$300; how much did they say?
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He quoted $250.



As far as the car's history, it is a new car but not a new car.



Manufacture date: June '05. In the showroom and on the lot nearly a year - I bought it new in mid-May '06. I brought it back a couple days later to have a few minor scratches fixed, and asked them to wax it since the paint felt dirty and dry (stupid me - didn't know what dealers could do to new cars...).



The dealer had a contractor onsite to fix scratches, and he said he would wax it a make it sparkle again. Looked good when I picked it up. Two days later, hologram hell, and all my black trim (plastic and metal) was grey and cloudy. Took it back to the dealer, and they had one of their own guys try to correct it (I wouldn't let the first bozo near it). He did OK, but about 3-4 weeks later, the holograms started showing up again. Not as bad as they were, but they are there nonetheless.



I noticed you are in S.D. - I am in Central CA. Do you know anyone up this way that you could recommend? I just don't get down your direction very often.



Thanks for the feedback. I intend on learning to maintain this car myself once it is properly polished and waxed.
 
I would definatly find an autopia to help you perfect your paint. I just dont know how many detailers you can trust these days. It seems that most of them compound with wool and then use a filler heavy wax. ICK!



Greg
 
hobie1 said:
He quoted $250.



As far as the car's history, it is a new car but not a new car.



Manufacture date: June '05. In the showroom and on the lot nearly a year - I bought it new in mid-May '06. I brought it back a couple days later to have a few minor scratches fixed, and asked them to wax it since the paint felt dirty and dry (stupid me - didn't know what dealers could do to new cars...).



The dealer had a contractor onsite to fix scratches, and he said he would wax it a make it sparkle again. Looked good when I picked it up. Two days later, hologram hell, and all my black trim (plastic and metal) was grey and cloudy. Took it back to the dealer, and they had one of their own guys try to correct it (I wouldn't let the first bozo near it). He did OK, but about 3-4 weeks later, the holograms started showing up again. Not as bad as they were, but they are there nonetheless.



I noticed you are in S.D. - I am in Central CA. Do you know anyone up this way that you could recommend? I just don't get down your direction very often.



Thanks for the feedback. I intend on learning to maintain this car myself once it is properly polished and waxed.
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I always clay before polishing, I feel that it is just more conducive to the life of the paint as you are not polishing down any contaminants. While it may not be necessary, and redundant I am not working on a time clock.

I seriously do not trust many people to touch my car, I feel that no matter what I am going to pay more attention than anyone else, which is how I got into detailing in the first place.

I like Gregs idea about finding a fellow Autopian who might help you learn the tricks of the trade, hell I would happilly help you in exchange for a couple bucks and a few cold beers while working.

Whereabouts in California are you? I live in OC and visit Santa Barbara often.
 
hobie1- Welcome to Autopia! Sorry to hear about the holograms.



When it comes to the claying, in *this particular instance* I don't think it'll matter all that much either way. That might surprise some of the regulars here as I'm usually *very* clay-centric in my detailing. But on a dark car, that's been polished (not properly, but, presumably, aggressively) I don't think it's a bid deal, at least not to the point of blowing off detailer#2 just because he doesn't plan to clay it.



While I agree that it'd be great to find an Autopian in your area, if detailer#2 knows his business he should be able to correct the holograms. While it's tough to guess who's good/not, you could see what detailer#2 plans to do (specifics, including products), check back here, and see if his proposed course of action sounds good to those of us who've done this sort of work. If he blows you off/won't say what products he'd use, then look elsewhere.



But if you can find somebody from here to do the work, I'd bet it'd turn out great.
 
Start from the root of the problem - THE DEALER. They damaged your car's paint. They should be obligated to pay for the correction of the problem. Don't have them paint it, because they might offer it after trying to correct the problem without sucess. Tell that that if the car gets re-painted then the car's value is deminished. Insist that re-painting is NOT a feasible option because of their negligence. Demand that they pay for the regular polishing of your vehicle's paint by a 3rd party shop.



In addition, I'll bet any amount of money that the car has contamination on the paint from sitting on the lot for a year. The detailer buffed this contamination into the finish - thus causing the swirls. Claying is a MUST in this case. If you don't remove all the contaminants in the paint, you'll never get it corrected.
 
Three Points:



1) You can tell if there is any surface contamination by placing your hand in a plastic ziplock and gently feeling your (clean) paint. Any grittiness should be deepend contamination. EZ.



2) Dealerships are morons. I can't believe how often they screw cars up with bad buffer work.



3) I lilke the idea of finding an Autopian to correct your paint...if there is one in your area. You can post an inquiry under the regional forum area. Otherwise, #2 should be able to do the trick...but I guess you never know.
 
LastDetail said:
I always clay before polishing, I feel that it is just more conducive to the life of the paint as you are not polishing down any contaminants. While it may not be necessary, and redundant I am not working on a time clock.

I seriously do not trust many people to touch my car, I feel that no matter what I am going to pay more attention than anyone else, which is how I got into detailing in the first place.

I like Gregs idea about finding a fellow Autopian who might help you learn the tricks of the trade, hell I would happilly help you in exchange for a couple bucks and a few cold beers while working.

Whereabouts in California are you? I live in OC and visit Santa Barbara often.
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Several people have suggested finding an Autopian - how should I go about doing that? I posted a request in the regional forum, but don't know how much traffic that forum gets.



I live in the Central Valley and can travel anywhere between Tulare and Modesto.



As far as going back to the dealer, I've decided against it for a bunch of reasons, and am willing to handle this myself.



I've been looking around online for detailing classes in the area, but no such luck. I've also been lurking on a few detailing sites, and have learned a little bit about what NOT to do (like let the dealer touch my car), but just can't tackle correcting this problem on my own.



Guy#2 uses a combo of Meguires and 3M products, and seemed to know what he was doing without being a braggart or showboater. He explained what he would do, and it seems to fit along w/ what I've been reading.



If nothing comes from my inquiry here, I will probably take it to him a couple weeks from now for lack of an alternative. The car badly needs to be waxed again, and I just don't want to do anything that might make it worse.



Thanks again for all the advice - I'll keep checking back for updates
 
if detailer #2 can remove all the contemination by polishing the paint.....





He would never touch MY car. Your clear seems to have been damaged already, why make it even thinner?



Find an Autopian. Drive to them if you have to.





m2c
 
tdekany said:
if detailer #2 can remove all the contemination by polishing the paint.....





He would never touch MY car. Your clear seems to have been damaged already, why make it even thinner?



Find an Autopian. Drive to them if you have to.





m2c
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#2 Sounds like a stand-up guy, that knows his stuff. He knows that if you're having trouble with holograms, and it was dealer-prepped, it doesn't need claying.



Polishing enough to induce holograms will remove any "rail dust" or surface contamination, as well as the polishing to remove holograms will do the same.



Claying in this case would be unnecessary :)
 
Welcome to Autopia!



Live and Learn and you will know it for life.



Do it yourself. For the price you are quoted you could set yourself up with all the equipment needed and this site will show you the way.



You bought a dark car and will need help in the future, so why not learn and have the products on hand.



But you should also find and get to know a good detailer.
 
StumpyDetailing said:
#2 Sounds like a stand-up guy, that knows his stuff. He knows that if you're having trouble with holograms, and it was dealer-prepped, it doesn't need claying.



Polishing enough to induce holograms will remove any "rail dust" or surface contamination, as well as the polishing to remove holograms will do the same.



Claying in this case would be unnecessary :)
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:argue :argue :argue



""Sounds like a stand up guy""??? So did our painter. Paints well, but the way he does things will never get him my money in the future.



You just don't know. I am/we are on Autopia for a reason. Anyone outside of it I am skeptical about.



Some people can sell ice to Eskimos. So what? :nana:



Do you use a rotary? I can induce holograms and remove nothing in the process.



Dealer prepped? Most likely, some untrained person washes it and puts an aio type product on at high speeds is how dealerships ""prep"" a used car in most cases. :buffing:



Next time you buy a used car from a dealer, check the lower panels behind the wheels where alot of jusk can build up. See how well it is prepped for you.



Might as well don't wash the car before a detail, just QD it. The polishg will remove all the dirt anyways...... :chuckle:



Salty is right - the OP should do it himself.
 
Why dont you just clay the car yourself and then bring it to # 2 if you do not want to invest in the fine art of detailing? That way, you get the car clayed which in my opinion is HUGELY important. You are only 50 miles from me in an airplane.... but the Sierra Neveda mountains create a bigger obstacle in a car, about a 250 mile obstacle:)
 
StumpyDetailing said:
#2 Sounds like a stand-up guy, that knows his stuff. He knows that if you're having trouble with holograms, and it was dealer-prepped, it doesn't need claying.



Polishing enough to induce holograms will remove any "rail dust" or surface contamination, as well as the polishing to remove holograms will do the same.



Claying in this case would be unnecessary :)
Click to expand...



Getting a little off track here...



Where I live, the rust contamination is pretty bad. And the only way to remove it through polishing alone is through a heavy compound with a twisted wool pad. On a dark colored vehicle, you can istall pretty bad halograms with a regular polish and a foam pad if you don't know what your doing. So they didn't necessarily remove all the bonded contaminents just cause they induced swirls.



Back on point...I also like the idea of Hobie doing it himself, especially since has expressed interest in looking for "detailing classes." This would be HUGE for the long-term maintanence of his vehicle as well.



Hobie...I don't know of anyone that has had problems learning how to use a dual action Porter Cable buffer in short order, and I also don't know of anyone that has damaged their paint through its use - it is almost error-free. Now the rotary those bone-heads used on your vehicle is a different story. But don't worry, even if they used the most aggressive compound made with the most aggressive wool pad made, it is extremely unlikely that they removed more than .1 mils; the consesus is it's okay to remove up to .3 to .4 mils of clear coat without comprimisinig the longevity of the paint (clear is usually about 2 mils thick in all, but the UV blockers migrate to the top). You can polish many many times before removing .3 - .4 mils. So don't worry, your paint is not permanetly damaged because they put swirls in it.
 
RAG said:
Getting a little off track here...



Where I live, the rust contamination is pretty bad. And the only way to remove it through polishing alone is through a heavy compound with a twisted wool pad. On a dark colored vehicle, you can istall pretty bad halograms with a regular polish and a foam pad if you don't know what your doing. So they didn't necessarily remove all the bonded contaminents just cause they induced swirls.
Click to expand...



X2

That's my opinion too, based on direct experience.
 
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