HELP with Price & Process for Fresh Paint Sand & Polish

[MusicMan]

Whats up everyone, gotta question for you guys.



I recently was contacted by a custom paint and renovation shop that is in need of a new sanding and polishing guy. His guy quit....it was too much work for him to do and to continue to hold down his other job.



So we're suppose to head out there tomorrow to check things out. I know we'll be working with fresh paint and that he wants it sanded and polished...to what DEGREE i dont yet know, but i DO KNOW i wont cut myself or our work short and do the classic sand/compound with wool and roll it out to the customer type of job. I wont have our name attached to hack work.



With that being said, assuming this guy actually wants a REAL detail...what do you recommend i do as far as approaching it.



I was thinking probably DA sand with 1500, DA sand with 3000, compound with rotary and 105, POSSIBLY compound again with DA and 105, polish with 205 and then see how it looks....maybe im adding steps there, maybe im not doing enough, but if some Vets here could chime in i'd appreciate it.



Also, how should i price this. 2 of us will be working the job, we split everything 50/50...so any ideas would be appreciated there also.



Lastly, any tips with sanding this thing would be great. Ive spot sanded by hand before, but never done a whole car...i want to be SAFE but i dont want to spend 15 years on this thing either...



Thanks all.

 

[imported_WhyteWizard]

You'll have to find out exactly what is expected. 1500 on a DA won't come close to the finish a show car shop will want because 1500 will mimic the orange peel. Depending on the shop, you might find that they'll want you to start with 1000 on a hard block or even 800.



1500 DA, dry, is about as aggressive as 2000 wet because the dust lifts the paper off the paint.



Also, you have to know how close to the edges, how tight in the small areas you're going to have to cut and polish. I'd ask to see some examples of what's been the standard and then, expect they'll raise them for you. Remember, you're going to have to get every speck of dust and sanding residue out of every crack and crevice. It all takes time.



Finally, I have a pattern and practice conversation with anyone who wants a colorsand. I ask what grit they want me to start with and if they're sure their paint can handle that much loss. Then I look them in the eye and say, "Since I didn't paint this, you're warranting to me that there's enough paint to handle being cut and polished. If I burn through, it's on you." My reputation is such that no one who knows my number argues.



Like I said in the beginning, you have to know exactly what's expected and then be realistic about whether you can do or even want to do the work. The only thing worse than not getting the job is, getting the job for a price that's not worth the effort.



All the best,

Robert

 

[MusicMan]

You'll have to find out exactly what is expected. 1500 on a DA won't come close to the finish a show car shop will want because 1500 will mimic the orange peel. Depending on the shop, you might find that they'll want you to start with 1000 on a hard block or even 800.



1500 DA, dry, is about as aggressive as 2000 wet because the dust lifts the paper off the paint.



Also, you have to know how close to the edges, how tight in the small areas you're going to have to cut and polish. I'd ask to see some examples of what's been the standard and then, expect they'll raise them for you. Remember, you're going to have to get every speck of dust and sanding residue out of every crack and crevice. It all takes time.



Finally, I have a pattern and practice conversation with anyone who wants a colorsand. I ask what grit they want me to start with and if they're sure their paint can handle that much loss. Then I look them in the eye and say, "Since I didn't paint this, you're warranting to me that there's enough paint to handle being cut and polished. If I burn through, it's on you." My reputation is such that no one who knows my number argues.



Like I said in the beginning, you have to know exactly what's expected and then be realistic about whether you can do or even want to do the work. The only thing worse than not getting the job is, getting the job for a price that's not worth the effort.



All the best,

Robert

Robert, that sounds like all good advice to me as well. So if i had to block it at 800 or 1000, would you say do it dry or wet...also how many 'strokes' should i be doing exactly and how much pressure?



Im going to go talk with him tomorrow and i appreciate the added questions you listed for me to use along with ones i had of my own. I for sure know it will take time...since it sounds like you have quite a bit of experience with this kind of work, could you put an average # of hours it takes you to do a full sand and polish?



Like i said in my original post, i wont cut myself short on this...not in what i get paid and not in what type of finish i want to give...if he doesn't want TOTAL show car....ok i can live with that and still help him out and he can help me out...but if he wants "Sand it and knock it down with wool"...and thats it...i can't do that. Thats not my line of work...i polish paint, i dont hack away at it and leave it be.



Asking him and letting him know up front that if i burn through its on him if he's guaranteeing me that theres enough paint on the car for me to remove all that and if i do burn through its on him. I think its best to always lay the cards on the table up front.



As far as price, i was figuring $40-50 an hour for each of us...but not sure if thats too high or two low. I've considered since, ive never done a WHOLE car sand down before that the first one we do we could give him $10/hr off of what we want to make just as a good faith gesture...show him what our work looks like..find out what dealing w/his paint is like...and then going from there....thoughts?



i know i put a lot more ?'s there lol...hope you can find time to reply.



Thanks Robert.

 

[imported_WhyteWizard]

When it comes to sanding in the sharper papers, I think it's a good idea to keep the pressure light and let the paper do the work. Wet sanding will, in my experience get a flatter finish, though, the difference is slight if you're good enough with a dual action sander to not have to use an interface pad that most people wouldn't see the difference looking right at it. Though they'll usually be able to tell if the wet sanded car is right next to the power sanded car.



Your pricing per hour sounds good to me. I, like you, am a professional. While I like my work and find some of the jobs more interesting than others, it's taken me years to figure out I have to take the money seriously. If you can make more doing low end slam bang details, then, in your professional life, that might be the way to go. You won't get a lot of pats on the back around here, but you'll have enough money to, if you really need that, hire a professional.



The best source for how to cut and polish the paint in question is likely the guy who put it on the car.



The dialogue for me, might go like this. I'd ask the client to describe his standard procedure in as much detail as you can get out of him. Ask a question then don't say anything until he's completely done talking, then, and only then, ask another.



I'd want to be very clear about how much sanding he does on rails, around headlights, how far down, does he sand under the car where it can't be seen unless its on a rack, how much hand work are you going to be doing. Door jams? Also, I'd suggest you make touch up time part of the equation. Unless you spend twice as long as you should on each panel and maybe even then, there are going to be spots that come up later. I do the initial cut and polish very, very, very carefully in places where, for example a bumper is going to keep me from being able to get a machine on the paint after it's installed. I always expect to come back after the car is assembled for the final inspection and detail. There are going to be scuffs from the shop and misses in the colorsanding, that's just the way it is. The shops that put out perfect work don't do it in one try, they do the car, then do the car, then do the car. Repeat till done.



Good luck,

Robert

 

[RaskyR1]

A lot of factors involved when doing these jobs and you're probably looking at 50-60 hours of work. If these are show cars that means you will need to be sanding to the edges and not taping them off. What grit paper you use should depend on how bad the orange peel is. If it's a reputable shop with a good booth and painter is should have minimal dust nibs and be rather smooth too.



You'll want to find out the following too:

• What type of clear they are using
  
• How many coats of clear they apply
  
• How long from when the car gets painted to when you'd be sanding it
  
• Is all the trim going to be on or of the vehicles (you want it off!)
  
• An example of their expectations
  

Some aftermarket paints don't like the movement of the DA while others seem to work great. You'll need to do some test spots first, but you're above process has worked well for me on several repaints now. A final jeweling with the rotary and PO85RD or UF may bump up the gloss a bit too.





Personally I feel that sanding by hand with a block results in a more level finish, but the DA is definitely faster. I'd suggest giving Kevin Brown a call too as he can give you some solid advice and hook you up with all the sanding media you'd need.



BuffDaddy





Rasky

 

[MusicMan]

When it comes to sanding in the sharper papers, I think it's a good idea to keep the pressure light and let the paper do the work. Wet sanding will, in my experience get a flatter finish, though, the difference is slight if you're good enough with a dual action sander to not have to use an interface pad that most people wouldn't see the difference looking right at it. Though they'll usually be able to tell if the wet sanded car is right next to the power sanded car.



Your pricing per hour sounds good to me. I, like you, am a professional. While I like my work and find some of the jobs more interesting than others, it's taken me years to figure out I have to take the money seriously. If you can make more doing low end slam bang details, then, in your professional life, that might be the way to go. You won't get a lot of pats on the back around here, but you'll have enough money to, if you really need that, hire a professional.



The best source for how to cut and polish the paint in question is likely the guy who put it on the car.



The dialogue for me, might go like this. I'd ask the client to describe his standard procedure in as much detail as you can get out of him. Ask a question then don't say anything until he's completely done talking, then, and only then, ask another.



I'd want to be very clear about how much sanding he does on rails, around headlights, how far down, does he sand under the car where it can't be seen unless its on a rack, how much hand work are you going to be doing. Door jams? Also, I'd suggest you make touch up time part of the equation. Unless you spend twice as long as you should on each panel and maybe even then, there are going to be spots that come up later. I do the initial cut and polish very, very, very carefully in places where, for example a bumper is going to keep me from being able to get a machine on the paint after it's installed. I always expect to come back after the car is assembled for the final inspection and detail. There are going to be scuffs from the shop and misses in the colorsanding, that's just the way it is. The shops that put out perfect work don't do it in one try, they do the car, then do the car, then do the car. Repeat till done.



Good luck,

Robert

A lot of factors involved when doing these jobs and you're probably looking at 50-60 hours of work. If these are show cars that means you will need to be sanding to the edges and not taping them off. What grit paper you use should depend on how bad the orange peel is. If it's a reputable shop with a good booth and painter is should have minimal dust nibs and be rather smooth too.



You'll want to find out the following too:

• What clear they are using
  
• How many coats of clear they apply
  
• How long from when the car gets painted to when you'd be sanding it
  
• Is all the trim going to be on or of the vehicles (you want it off!)
  
• An example of their expectations
  

Some aftermarket paints don't like the movement of the DA while others seem to work great. You'll need to do some test spots first, but you're above process has worked well for me on several repaints now. A final jeweling with the rotary and PO85RD or UF may bump up the gloss a bit too.





Personally I feel that sanding by hand with a block results in a more level finish, but the DA is definitely faster. I'd suggest giving Kevin Brown a call too as he can give you some solid advice and hook you up with all the sanding media you'd need.



BuffDaddy





Rasky

More good advice from both of you guys, appreciate it a lot. I'll try to give Kevin a call after i finish my work today but before i head out to see this guy.



Jeweling with Menzernas or UF sure would look good...i worry so much about leaving a slight hologram though....after i do that should i go over it again with the DA to be sure none are left or?

 

[RaskyR1]

More good advice from both of you guys, appreciate it a lot. I'll try to give Kevin a call after i finish my work today but before i head out to see this guy.



Jeweling with Menzernas or UF sure would look good...i worry so much about leaving a slight hologram though....after i do that should i go over it again with the DA to be sure none are left or?

No, that would be working backwards. If it finishes down really well with the DA then I'd probably leave it like that, especially if you're worried about holograms. Some paints just finish out better with the rotary, but you won't know until you do some test panels. After doing M105/wool, M105 foam DA, and M205 foam DA, the paint should be 100% hologram free so the chances of putting in holograms with PO85RD or UF is minimal as long as you have good technique and work the product long enough.



I've just found that a lot of fresh paints (48-72hrs) seem to have issues with the DA movement and tend to leave behind micro marring/hazing. If this happens you will want to do the final step with a rotary. I've also had some paints finish down flawlessly with M205 on the DA....really just depends on the paint I guess, but it seems to be worse the fresher the paint is.



This car was done with your above process; M105 wool via rotary, M105 DA foam, M205 DA foam...it was several months after being painted though.

After 105 wool

After M205

Rasky

 

[MusicMan]

When it comes to sanding in the sharper papers, I think it's a good idea to keep the pressure light and let the paper do the work. Wet sanding will, in my experience get a flatter finish, though, the difference is slight if you're good enough with a dual action sander to not have to use an interface pad that most people wouldn't see the difference looking right at it. Though they'll usually be able to tell if the wet sanded car is right next to the power sanded car.



Your pricing per hour sounds good to me. I, like you, am a professional. While I like my work and find some of the jobs more interesting than others, it's taken me years to figure out I have to take the money seriously. If you can make more doing low end slam bang details, then, in your professional life, that might be the way to go. You won't get a lot of pats on the back around here, but you'll have enough money to, if you really need that, hire a professional.



The best source for how to cut and polish the paint in question is likely the guy who put it on the car.



The dialogue for me, might go like this. I'd ask the client to describe his standard procedure in as much detail as you can get out of him. Ask a question then don't say anything until he's completely done talking, then, and only then, ask another.



I'd want to be very clear about how much sanding he does on rails, around headlights, how far down, does he sand under the car where it can't be seen unless its on a rack, how much hand work are you going to be doing. Door jams? Also, I'd suggest you make touch up time part of the equation. Unless you spend twice as long as you should on each panel and maybe even then, there are going to be spots that come up later. I do the initial cut and polish very, very, very carefully in places where, for example a bumper is going to keep me from being able to get a machine on the paint after it's installed. I always expect to come back after the car is assembled for the final inspection and detail. There are going to be scuffs from the shop and misses in the colorsanding, that's just the way it is. The shops that put out perfect work don't do it in one try, they do the car, then do the car, then do the car. Repeat till done.



Good luck,

Robert

A lot of factors involved when doing these jobs and you're probably looking at 50-60 hours of work. If these are show cars that means you will need to be sanding to the edges and not taping them off. What grit paper you use should depend on how bad the orange peel is. If it's a reputable shop with a good booth and painter is should have minimal dust nibs and be rather smooth too.



You'll want to find out the following too:

• What type of clear they are using
  
• How many coats of clear they apply
  
• How long from when the car gets painted to when you'd be sanding it
  
• Is all the trim going to be on or of the vehicles (you want it off!)
  
• An example of their expectations
  

Some aftermarket paints don't like the movement of the DA while others seem to work great. You'll need to do some test spots first, but you're above process has worked well for me on several repaints now. A final jeweling with the rotary and PO85RD or UF may bump up the gloss a bit too.





Personally I feel that sanding by hand with a block results in a more level finish, but the DA is definitely faster. I'd suggest giving Kevin Brown a call too as he can give you some solid advice and hook you up with all the sanding media you'd need.



BuffDaddy





Rasky

No, that would be working backwards. If it finishes down really well with the DA then I'd probably leave it like that, especially if you're worried about holograms. Some paints just finish out better with the rotary, but you won't know until you do some test panels. After doing M105/wool, M105 foam DA, and M205 foam DA, the paint should be 100% hologram free so the chances of putting in holograms with PO85RD or UF is minimal as long as you have good technique and work the product long enough.



I've just found that a lot of fresh paints (48-72hrs) seem to have issues with the DA movement and tend to leave behind micro marring/hazing. If this happens you will want to do the final step with a rotary. I've also had some paints finish down flawlessly with M205 on the DA....really just depends on the paint I guess, but it seems to be worse the fresher the paint is.



This car was done with your above process; M105 wool via rotary, M105 DA foam, M205 DA foam...it was several months after being painted though.

After 105 wool

After M205

Rasky

Looks good man, i remember seeing that car in another of ur posts. Maybe im seeing it wrong...but it looks like after 105 and wool...it actually looks like you knocked otu some of the orange peel/waviness in the paint...you were able to do that without sanding?



Im assuming someone else did the sanding on this car?



So i talked to the guy...he said he does a lot of 'drivers'...aka..not show cars or even customized cars...and said he usually paid his 'other guy' $250 per car flat rate...to basically sand, cut with compound and polish....he doesn't want it 'perfect' but doesn't want it wavy looking or any sanding scratches left...:-\...for $250....and said other guys he hired could usually do it in about 6-8 hours by themselves...i really dont think this is a gig for me. I dont like production work ESPECIALLY if its that damn cheap. $250 for 2 ppl to split...nuh uh. I dont even do a single pass polish in that short of time...and i almost charge that much. Granted, i dont gotta wash rims/tires/dress stuff, clay etc...but still even for a 'quick' job that seems very cheap...

 

[derek37]

Good thread, very informative.

 

[911fanatic]

I agree. I wouldn't touch that for that kind of money. I would however, love to see a car his guy did for $250!

 

[RaskyR1]

Looks good man, i remember seeing that car in another of ur posts. Maybe im seeing it wrong...but it looks like after 105 and wool...it actually looks like you knocked otu some of the orange peel/waviness in the paint...you were able to do that without sanding?



Im assuming someone else did the sanding on this car?



So i talked to the guy...he said he does a lot of 'drivers'...aka..not show cars or even customized cars...and said he usually paid his 'other guy' $250 per car flat rate...to basically sand, cut with compound and polish....he doesn't want it 'perfect' but doesn't want it wavy looking or any sanding scratches left...:-\...for $250....and said other guys he hired could usually do it in about 6-8 hours by themselves...i really dont think this is a gig for me. I dont like production work ESPECIALLY if its that damn cheap. $250 for 2 ppl to split...nuh uh. I dont even do a single pass polish in that short of time...and i almost charge that much. Granted, i dont gotta wash rims/tires/dress stuff, clay etc...but still even for a 'quick' job that seems very cheap...

That M105 pic was after I wet sanded the panel/car.



I'd definitely pass on that job as well.



Rasky





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MusicMan]

I agree. I wouldn't touch that for that kind of money. I would however, love to see a car his guy did for $250!

Oh...we got to see it, he had 1/2 way sanded a truck before he 'quit'...well...what he didnt tell the painter before he quit was the he burned through a couple spots on the one door lmao...nice huh?

That M105 pic was after I wet sanded the panel/car.



I'd definitely pass on that job as well.



Rasky





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

lol ok now that makes more sense

 

[DaGonz]

No, that would be working backwards. If it finishes down really well with the DA then I'd probably leave it like that, especially if you're worried about holograms. Some paints just finish out better with the rotary, but you won't know until you do some test panels. After doing M105/wool, M105 foam DA, and M205 foam DA, the paint should be 100% hologram free so the chances of putting in holograms with PO85RD or UF is minimal as long as you have good technique and work the product long enough.



I've just found that a lot of fresh paints (48-72hrs) seem to have issues with the DA movement and tend to leave behind micro marring/hazing. If this happens you will want to do the final step with a rotary. I've also had some paints finish down flawlessly with M205 on the DA....really just depends on the paint I guess, but it seems to be worse the fresher the paint is.



This car was done with your above process; M105 wool via rotary, M105 DA foam, M205 DA foam...it was several months after being painted though.

After 105 wool

After M205

Rasky

Oh my God that Mustang is beautiful... as Bob Willis would say... "maximum tightness!"

 

[imported_WhyteWizard]

I'm glad to see you took the advice. Don't work cheap. Being tired is one thing, being hungry is another, but there's no reason to be both.



Robert