Factory orange peel - can a DA-only help it?

Jeff240sx

New member
Hey all,



I've spent a good part of my day reading about orange peel, and every thread I've read says that to kill it, it's a multi-stage sanding and correction process.



But, I'm also pretty jealous of the single-stage people, and the flawless clears that I see on the site.



So I'm wondering, is there a happy medium that can be done without resorting to wetsanding?

I have a 2010 Subaru with notoriously weak paint, so I'd really, really rather not wetsand, or have a professional wetsand it.



So, I'm wondering if a DA-only routine exists to help with OP. I understand it wouldn't go away, but just making it less noticable would make me pretty happy.
 
Jeff240sx said:
Hey all,



I've spent a good part of my day reading about orange peel, and every thread I've read says that to kill it, it's a multi-stage sanding and correction process.



But, I'm also pretty jealous of the single-stage people, and the flawless clears that I see on the site.



So I'm wondering, is there a happy medium that can be done without resorting to wetsanding?

I have a 2010 Subaru with notoriously weak paint, so I'd really, really rather not wetsand, or have a professional wetsand it.



So, I'm wondering if a DA-only routine exists to help with OP. I understand it wouldn't go away, but just making it less noticable would make me pretty happy.



Nope.



The paint on your Sub is thin anyway and sanding would not be a very good idea. Sucks I know but that's just the way factory paints are today. :(
 
Other than bumping up the gloss with polishing, sanding is the only way to improve(by flattening) an orange peeled finish. Don't forget, you can use a DA polisher (aka Porter Cable) to not only correct paint, but wet sand with. Slap on some 3M Trizact sanding disks and you're in the green. If your paint is factory, you're fine taking off a little to take one for the wetsanding team. What state are you in?
 
Modern clear coats, especially a brand new car with a factory baked-on finish, are too hard to flatten out by simply machine polishing with a DA Polisher.



The best way to remove orange peel is to sand the paint flat and then remove your sanding marks. The problem with a factory finish is the paint is,



  • Hard
  • Thin

It's easy to sand paint, that's putting scratches into it, the tricky part is getting the ALL out without going through the clear layer and exposing the basecoat.



Wrote a couple of articles on this topic...



http://www.autopia.org/forum/autoge...en-single-stage-paints-clear-coat-paints.html





In this thread I sanded factory paint, finished out at #3000 Grit and then removed the sanding marks using the Griot's Garage DA Polisher with some fairly non-aggressive products, point being if I could remove sanding marks using non-aggressive products you could easily do the job with more aggressive products but the problem is still that factory paint is very thin.





http://www.autopia.org/forum/autoge...sanding-marks-griot-s-rop-wolfgang-twins.html





Besides the risk of either removing too much paint or not getting your sanding marks out 100% also remember that sanding and buffing removes a measurable amount of clear paint off the car and all the U.V. protection for the basecoat is in the clear coat.





Can you sand and buff a factory clear coat finish? Sure!



Should you?



Might want to learn to love the peel...





Especially if the car in question is your daily driver...



:)
 
David Fermani said:
Don't forget, you can use a DA polisher (aka Porter Cable) to not only correct paint, but wet sand with.



David's right, if you have the passion and drive to sand down your car's factory finish you can machine Damp-Sand using Trizact or Abralon and in a few week Meguiar's new Unigrit Finishing System will be shipping.



Here's a car with a custom paint job, (thicker layer of clear), completely machine sanded using the Damp Sanding technique. In fact I only used 16 ounces of water to sand the entire El Camino down...



If it has paint... it gets polished...





Meguiar's Unigrit Finishing System

MeguiarsNewFinishSyst001.jpg










UnigritDampSanding001.jpg






UnigritDampSanding002.jpg






Using the new Meguiar's Unigrit Finishing System by Damp-Sanding the paint and not only was it easy it was fast. I probably sanded the entire car down in around 3 hours and only used 16 ounces of water and 4 discs. After sanding, I removed all the sanding marks using Meguiar's W5000 Wool Pad with M105 on a rotary buffer, followed by machine polishing with M205 on a W8207 foam polishing pad with a rotary buffer followed by W9207 on the G110v2 for a swirl-free finish, then sealed the paint using M21 Synthetic Paint Sealant.





Remember...

Whatever you decide to do, just keep in mind to do a Test Spot first to make sure you can remove your sanding marks with the pads, chemicals and tools you're thinking of using for the entire project.



Be mindful of all manufactures recommendations and if you're working outside their official recommendations understand the risks you're taking on.





I did a section using Surbuf Microfiber pad on a DA Polisher with M105 and M105 and it easily removed the #3000 Unigrit Sanding Marks.





Surbuf MicroFinger Buffing Pads

SandingMarkRemovalWSurbuf000.jpg








This is our project car. This is a restored and mild hotrod 1969 El Camino with a custom basecoat/clearcoat finish. The fit and finish of the panels is excellent and the paint application came out very nice, there are a few leftover sanding marks in the paint and rotary buffer swirls including arc scratches probably from an abrasive particle being trapped between the pad and the paint. Our goal is to remove all the below surface defects and restore a true show car shine.

SandingMarkRemovalWSurbuf001.jpg






We moved the car out into the sun where the bright overhead sunlight can reveal the true condition of the paint.

SandingMarkRemovalWSurbuf002.jpg






redelcamino_029.jpg








Next we'll Machine Damp Sand the deep swirls and scratches until the surface is flat using the new Meguiar's Unigrit Professional Finishing System.

UnigritFinishingSystem000.jpg






The section below was sanded using the #3000 Unigrit Foam Finishing Disc on the Meguiar's G110v2 on the 5.0 Speed Setting for about 5-6 Section Passes.

SandingMarkRemovalWSurbuf003.jpg






We moved the car back out into the sun to show just how flat of a sanding mark pattern the Unigrit Foam Finishing Papers leave behind and this is because of the Unigrit particle size and distribution of these particles over the face of each disc; two very important factors that make removing sanding marks quick and easy.

SandingMarkRemovalWSurbuf004.jpg






A very flat or matte appearance

In person, the paint actually has a sheen to it as it's just a quick step away from a polished look because the sanding marks are so shallow and flat...

SandingMarkRemovalWSurbuf005.jpg






Back in the garage under the lights, you can see the Damp-Sanded area and the swirls and scratches in the rest of the paint.

SandingMarkRemovalWSurbuf006.jpg






Here are the results after Machine Compounding using the Surbuf MicroFinger Buffing Pads on the Meguiar's G110v2 on the 6.0 Speed Setting with M105 Ultra Compound and the KBM for about 5-6 Section passes and the

We followed this with M205 Ultra Finishing Polish on a W9207 Foam Finishing pad on the 5.0 Speed Setting using the G110v2 for about 4 passes with medium pressure and then two more section passes with just a little more than the weight of the machine to keep the pad flat to the surface. The results you see here are only after polishing with M205, there is no wax or paint sealant applied at this point.



The test section was also wiped clean using straight Mineral Spirits to remove any residual polishing oils.

SandingMarkRemovalWSurbuf007.jpg




SandingMarkRemovalWSurbuf008.jpg




SandingMarkRemovalWSurbuf009.jpg








Note the Dime in this picture carefully placed onto the paint

SandingMarkRemovalWSurbuf010.jpg








Close-up to show there are no sanding marks left on the surface, no tick marks or haze. There is a spec of dust just to the lower left hand corner off to the side of the dime that we left there to show just how close we are to the paint when taking this picture. This paint is LSP ready.

SandingMarkRemovalWSurbuf011.jpg










After shots...

redelcamino_065.jpg




redelcamino_066.jpg




redelcamino_067.jpg




redelcamino_076.jpg






Again, you can sand down your Subaru's paint to remove orange peel but you might want to weigh risk versus the benefit versus how long you plan on owning the car.





:)
 
That's pretty much what I was expecting - just had to hear it out loud so I wouldn't attempt anything crazy and waste my time.



And yea, with how bad Subaru paint is, I expect to repaint this thing by the time I have it paid off... Maybe I won't have peel then, hehe.



Thanks for the replies! And I love your posts Mike, I've followed them from here to like 4 other forums via google searches :xyxthumbs
 
Amazing work on that El Camino. About your Subi, that's a touch one, as David Fermani mentioned you will just round the orangepeel by polishing, and wetsanding is the only way to truly get your paint flat. Unfortunately, you don't have too much factory clearcoat on your Subaru.
 
GREAT post Mike! I'm doing almost the same exact setup on a VW Bus tomorrow. Care to explain the process of "damp" sanding though? I thought those type of pads were designed to be used dry?
 
Nice write-up as usual Mike. :)



The problem with most modern clears is not only how bad the orange peel is but that it usually is too bad to remove via wetsanding without compromising the the UV protection in the clear.
 
RenuAuto said:
I thought those type of pads were designed to be used dry?



Actually, the Meguiar's Unigrit Sanding Discs are only recommended to be used wet and if you use them dry you'll clog them and wear them out prematurely.



I have most of a full how-to write-up typed-up but not finished, I'll try to finish this weekend since so far I have it off... knock on paint...





:)
 
Barry Theal said:
Have you ever tried Norton's 3000 grit paper for D/A Mike.



No I haven't. Do you like it?



I'm game for trying it as Norton has a good name in the abrasives industry.



We're bringing in 3M Trizact and Meguiar's Unigrit at Autogeek, I would probably be pushing it to ask for another line... :D



Here's a really good write-up by a very talented detailer that not only does excellent work but really knows how to take pictures and format and create a write-up... this particular write up is a great example of taking a finish to its maximum potential under time constraints out of a person's control.





:xyxthumbs
 
Mike Phillips said:
No I haven't. Do you like it?



I'm game for trying it as Norton has a good name in the abrasives industry.



We're bringing in 3M Trizact and Meguiar's Unigrit at Autogeek, I would probably be pushing it to ask for another line... :D



Here's a really good write-up by a very talented detailer that not only does excellent work but really knows how to take pictures and format and create a write-up... this particular write up is a great example of taking a finish to its maximum potential under time constraints out of a person's control.





:xyxthumbs



Yeah no doubt Chad is an excellant detailer. What did that have to do with Norton Paper? :think: LOL Chad if you read this no harm meant. LOL I was just gonna mention to Mike about trying Norton Paper. .
 
Barry Theal said:
What did that have to do with Norton Paper? :think:



Sorry, just a small tie-in to Megs and 3M, (the lines were currently slated to carry), and I'm not sure we'll be able to bring in another line...



(Sorry for the confusion)



I have used the Mirka Abralon system and really do like their system also. I have a number of wet-sanding projects coming up, I'll see if my local PBE carries Norton...





:xyxthumbs
 
Barry Theal said:
Ill have to give this whole wetsanding thing a try someday.



One way to test out a sanding system on new paint technology is to rent a car for the weekend...



I'm not officially endorsing this practice but I know people that have done this without any mistakes...



:D
 
Mike Phillips said:
One way to test out a sanding system on new paint technology is to rent a car for the weekend...



I'm not officially endorsing this practice but I know people that have done this without any mistakes...



:D



Reminds me of a red Focus a few years ago in Dallas....;)
 
RenuAuto said:
I thought those type of pads were designed to be used dry?



Mike Phillips said:
Actually, the Meguiar's Unigrit Sanding Discs are only recommended to be used wet and if you use them dry you'll clog them and wear them out prematurely.



They(3M) used to recommend using the 1500 discs dry and most likely switched over to wet for that very reason. I remember a thread I posted 2 years ago of a 3M PERFECT-IT 3000 Training Class I was involved in with our local 3M Sales Rep. They use to recommend using the 1500(non-Trizact) dry and 3000 Trizact wet (~damp) back then.



Here's the thread:



http://www.autopia.org/forum/machine-polishing/103709-3m-perfect-3000-training-class-pictures.html
 
I'm on Mirka pads right now. I'd like to get some Meg pads from AutoGeek when you guys carry them though as AutoGeek has ALWAYS gone above and beyond my expectations on customer service.



Excited to learn more about these.
 
Scottwax said:
Reminds me of a red Focus a few years ago in Dallas....;)



You have a sharp memory... I remember the class but forgot the car, here it is though on page 5 of the Dallas Roadshow Class



Remember how cold it was? There was black ice on the road...





Meguiar's Roadshow Goes To Dallas! - Page 5 - Car Care Forums: Meguiar's Online



Mike Phillips said:
After the training session with the G100 Dual Action Polisher, a number of people wanted to learn some advanced procedures such as how to use the rotary buffer.



For this demonstration we borrowed the deck-lid on my rental car.



2DallasRCExposingSwirls.jpg







Like I said, I don't recommend or endorse the practice...

(but I use it once in a while)





:D
 
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