dc52nv
New member
Which would you recommend for paint prep for claying? Is it worth the money to get CG or will dawn or APC mix work fine? How much dawn soap per gallon? How much APC per gallon with car soap? Thanks in advance.
Dawn wash, APC mix or CG Citrus?
- Thread starter dc52nv
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colinpd137
New member
I use CG Citrus Wash & Gloss + CG All Clean+ APC Mixture in my foam cannon for stripping. If it still doesn't strip thats when the dawn comes out.
Bunky
Detailing Gnosis
I tried just a regular soap and APC in a foam cannon and worked well. It saves one less special soap to have around. I use the CG CW&G on wheel area washes but once used up I will not order any more.
TroyScherer
Ummm.... Ya.....
I have gone both ways. Dawn –or- Dawn + APC works and since I only do it once a year I don’t see any real problem with it. I usually use 1oz of Dawn per 1 Gal of water.
I have started to use dedicated car soap for stripping though. More because I like to strip stuff off more often and want a guaranteed safe product. I have CG CW&G and CW&C. I think I will be getting CG CWR soon as well. But this is also because I love to try new and different soaps. So having the option is always nice for me. I very seldom use the same soap 2 times in a row anymore.
Depending on the LSP and its current “level” of protection will determine if I need to add APC to my wash mixture. If it is a selant or a newer wax layer it may require this added cleaning ability. When adding APC I usually add 2-3 oz. But when adding APC to you mixtures make sure you don’t let it dry on your paint.
But if you are going to be claying and polishing (even minor gloss enhancement) it may not be as critical to strip everything off in the wash process.
07gtcs
New member
Wet the car, spary with 4:1 diluted APC (watch wax melt off), wash with dawn, rinse thoroughly.
dc52nv
New member
Thanks everyone for your feedback.
I would recommend more reading on this subject.
I am a product formulator and manufacturer, as such I repeatedly apply protective products to vehicles as testing during product development. I can do this dozens of times in a week, so have a lot of experience here. That experience is that waxes and sealants do not strip anywhere near as easily as many people believe. On the contrary, I believe that either the LSPs being used are poor or the products being used are misleading the user into thinking that the LSP is removed.
On the former point, quality of the LSP. My formulated products never strip with a single application of xxxxx liquid (this is the UK equivalent of Dawn hand dishwash liquid) or dilute APC. On occasion, strong or neat APC can do the job. Often neat APC and strong alkaline degreasers will fail. IPA is ineffective. Typically, reliable removal requires strong hydrocarbon based products such as the type you guys would know as Stoners Tarminator. So, I am left with the fact that these stripping solutions fail for my LSPs but are claimed to work on other manufacturers LSPs.
Option 2 is a mistaken belief that stripping has occurred. This is something which is backed by the chemistry of surfactants. Surfactants have water loving and hydrocarbon loving 'tails'. This means that they can dissolve both oil and water. Basically it means that they can be dissolved in water (i.e. your product) and will stick to and dissolve hydrocarbons (your contamination - or, in this case, your LSP). The problem comes that not all surfactants stick equally to hydrocarbons and water, some stick much better to hydrocarbons. Now, given that your LSP is quite firmly bonded to the surface, the surfactant will stick to it with a bond stronger than it will form with surrounding water (or rinse water). As a result, the surfactant will be difficult to rinse. With many surfactants, a wash of an LSP will leave you a layer of surfactant stuck on top of the LSP. This will have the hydrocarbon loving tail stuck to the LSP and the water loving tail poking up. When water comes near this tail, it will grab hold of it. When combined across the surface, this means that water will be attracted to the surface leading to a lack of beading and hydrophobic nature (in fact it will make it hydrophillic). Viewed another way, many surfactant preparations (including xxxxx liquid, washing up liquids and APCs) will strive to leave surfaces 'gleaming' (or other marketing terminology). This is achieved by ensuring that water spreads evenly over the surfaces and does not form droplets which can lead to water spotting. The method of doing this is to leave a surfactant film - precisely as I have described above. I am very confident that this is what many users experience with many of these supposed 'stripper' washes.
I am made more confident again because I see this myself. I can often remove the hydrophobic nature of my LSP with a single wash. However I have long since realised that I can recover this hydrophobic character with nothing more than a good scrub or a really thorough rinse. Don't kid yourself that this is just a case of a single bucket of water or 3 second sheet of water from your hose - this is simply not enough. I find that it can often take hot water and a manual contact wash to effect removal. In some cases it can even need IPA (yes, you read it right, IPA can recover an LSP!).
So really do think on this. I am not alone in saying that I cannot get LSP stripping with many of the supposed methods used by others. Ask yourself why not? It is easy to tell whether the LSP is still present, simply based on the hydrophobic character so it is unlikely that we have stripped it and not realised it. On the contrary, it is easy to make a surface appear hydrophillic, without the removal of the original hydrophobic layer. If I am wrong about this mechanism, this suggests that some LSPs are really very poor and, in that case, probably you should look elsewhere. If I am right, you will probably find that your LSP is absolutely fine but clever surfactant molecules are misleading you.
As a minor addition to this - why would you care? Well if you have a layer of surfactant on the surface and apply a fresh LSP to this, this surfactant will be either mixed into the new LSP layer or will remain as a base layer. In either case, the surfactant is going to have a significant degree of water solubility and thus it will compromise the durability of your fresh LSP.
I am a product formulator and manufacturer, as such I repeatedly apply protective products to vehicles as testing during product development. I can do this dozens of times in a week, so have a lot of experience here. That experience is that waxes and sealants do not strip anywhere near as easily as many people believe. On the contrary, I believe that either the LSPs being used are poor or the products being used are misleading the user into thinking that the LSP is removed.
On the former point, quality of the LSP. My formulated products never strip with a single application of xxxxx liquid (this is the UK equivalent of Dawn hand dishwash liquid) or dilute APC. On occasion, strong or neat APC can do the job. Often neat APC and strong alkaline degreasers will fail. IPA is ineffective. Typically, reliable removal requires strong hydrocarbon based products such as the type you guys would know as Stoners Tarminator. So, I am left with the fact that these stripping solutions fail for my LSPs but are claimed to work on other manufacturers LSPs.
Option 2 is a mistaken belief that stripping has occurred. This is something which is backed by the chemistry of surfactants. Surfactants have water loving and hydrocarbon loving 'tails'. This means that they can dissolve both oil and water. Basically it means that they can be dissolved in water (i.e. your product) and will stick to and dissolve hydrocarbons (your contamination - or, in this case, your LSP). The problem comes that not all surfactants stick equally to hydrocarbons and water, some stick much better to hydrocarbons. Now, given that your LSP is quite firmly bonded to the surface, the surfactant will stick to it with a bond stronger than it will form with surrounding water (or rinse water). As a result, the surfactant will be difficult to rinse. With many surfactants, a wash of an LSP will leave you a layer of surfactant stuck on top of the LSP. This will have the hydrocarbon loving tail stuck to the LSP and the water loving tail poking up. When water comes near this tail, it will grab hold of it. When combined across the surface, this means that water will be attracted to the surface leading to a lack of beading and hydrophobic nature (in fact it will make it hydrophillic). Viewed another way, many surfactant preparations (including xxxxx liquid, washing up liquids and APCs) will strive to leave surfaces 'gleaming' (or other marketing terminology). This is achieved by ensuring that water spreads evenly over the surfaces and does not form droplets which can lead to water spotting. The method of doing this is to leave a surfactant film - precisely as I have described above. I am very confident that this is what many users experience with many of these supposed 'stripper' washes.
I am made more confident again because I see this myself. I can often remove the hydrophobic nature of my LSP with a single wash. However I have long since realised that I can recover this hydrophobic character with nothing more than a good scrub or a really thorough rinse. Don't kid yourself that this is just a case of a single bucket of water or 3 second sheet of water from your hose - this is simply not enough. I find that it can often take hot water and a manual contact wash to effect removal. In some cases it can even need IPA (yes, you read it right, IPA can recover an LSP!).
So really do think on this. I am not alone in saying that I cannot get LSP stripping with many of the supposed methods used by others. Ask yourself why not? It is easy to tell whether the LSP is still present, simply based on the hydrophobic character so it is unlikely that we have stripped it and not realised it. On the contrary, it is easy to make a surface appear hydrophillic, without the removal of the original hydrophobic layer. If I am wrong about this mechanism, this suggests that some LSPs are really very poor and, in that case, probably you should look elsewhere. If I am right, you will probably find that your LSP is absolutely fine but clever surfactant molecules are misleading you.
As a minor addition to this - why would you care? Well if you have a layer of surfactant on the surface and apply a fresh LSP to this, this surfactant will be either mixed into the new LSP layer or will remain as a base layer. In either case, the surfactant is going to have a significant degree of water solubility and thus it will compromise the durability of your fresh LSP.
I'm quite convinced you need either a solvent tar remover or a good paint cleanser. The former is probably easiest, a cleanser and a DA is quite effective, mileage may vary by hand. Of course if you are going to clay and polish, there isn't much point worrying as any lsp will be removed by these steps.