Cash for Clunkers

Accumulator

Well-known member
I usually avoid internet discussions about politics/etc. like the plague, but I'm curious about how my fellow Autopians feel about the Cash for Clunkers program.



I have all sorts of issues with the govt. spending (my) money on this to begin with, and the idea of deliberately destroying the engines of perfectly serviceable cars simply goes against my grain.



I was just telling Landcruiser how I'm almost certainly saving an elderly friend's old Audi from such a fate by buying it from her before her one daughter gets her hands on it and trades it toward a hybrid or something. I need that car like a hole in the head, but it came down to putting my money where my mouth is (or rather, where my convictions lie).
 
I really don't care if somebody scraps a perfectly good car *shrug*



The one thing I do find funny though is how this will all come back to bite people in the *** - people are trading in used 'junkers' that they can barely afford as is (in terms of gas&insurance), use the $4500 as downpayment and get a new car - congratulations, you've just gone from a car that's paid off that you can barely afford gas&insurance on, to a car that has you in debt wher eyou've got gas+insurance+car payments now.



Nobody learned the first time about over-extending themselves with debt, so let's try this again and see what happens (sic).



Not to mention now the govn't is training people to expect a handout - so when the c4c programs runs out of money a second time, sales will tank as people wait for the govn't to re-establish it for the 3rd time.
 
Just my 2 cents . . .



I think it's a great idea. However, it needs some serious modifications. For example: Why $3500 for your trade in for a 4 mpg increase when you get only $4500 for having to more than double (the 4 mpg) to get 10 mpg or more? How about $3000 for a 10mpg increase and $5000 for a 15mpg or more increase? It just seems like you're rewarding the underacheivers. At the dealership the other day, I saw an old Chevy truck (I love 'em) getting $4500 for a newer SUV just because the SUV was getting about 25 mpg. Go figure.



Also, I personally feel that you should be within a certain income bracket to take advantage of the program. Technically, even Bill Gates is eligible for $4500 if he has a qualifying trade in. It should be more readily available to people finding it hard to pay for gas on a car getting, let's say 15 mpg and trying to get a Kia (example) that get's 30mpg. Instead, you see more people trading in their old (formerly) expensive clunker to get a newer expensive ride.



Again, just my 2 cents. I hope I didn't offend anyone :-)
 
Efnfast you said it best. People who can not afford the old current car they have will get a brand new shiny car that they can't afford. So instead of have a old pile of rust sitting on their lawn they will have a new one in their garage in fear of the repo man taking what they can't afford away. Then what is the person stuck with? thats right a bus pass.
 
I'm all for the program, but think that the Salvage should be sold instead of just turned into scrap metal. That way the Govnt would atleast be able to make some of the money back. It's discusting that with all this new car market stimulation, that auto makers are almost out of inventory. It would have been nice if the Govnt would have planned better (w/the car companies) so that car companies could meet the public's huge demand. They extended the program, but there's no cars in stock? Makes no sence.
 
David Fermani said:
I'm all for the program, but think that the Salvage should be sold instead of just turned into scrap metal. That way the Govnt would atleast be able to make some of the money back. It's discusting that with all this new car market stimulation, that auto makers are almost out of inventory. It would have been nice if the Govnt would have planned better (w/the car companies) so that car companies could meet the public's huge demand. They extended the program, but there's no cars in stock? Makes no sence.



I believe the original intent of the program was to get less fuel efficient vehicles off the road so salvaging them kind of defeats the purpose.



I definitely agree that lessens just aren't being learned here. This program is going to keep the repo guys busy over the next year or so ;)
 
What irritates me about it is the MPG cutoff. We have a 1997 Subaru that's worth about 500 bucks, but it gets too good of gas mileage to trade in - even if we bought a Civic Hybrid or another car that gets 10MPG or more better, we're SOL.



Since my dad foresaw gas prices rising, we chose to buy a car that got good mileage at the time, and got screwed for it 12 years later.



However, if we had bought an Explorer (or anything else with terrible gas mileage) in 1997, we would be able to trade it in on pretty much anything - even a turbo 6 or v8 car.



Typical Government picking winners and losers....don't even get me started on how people who make wise decisions usually end up in the losers category.
 
rjstaaf said:
I believe the original intent of the program was to get less fuel efficient vehicles off the road so salvaging them kind of defeats the purpose.



I definitely agree that lessens just aren't being learned here. This program is going to keep the repo guys busy over the next year or so ;)



Yes, this is definately the purpose. I just don't think people see that and want a "free" $3500. The part I don't like is that taxpayers are providing this money, but it is for the greater good, kinda.



My qualms come from the marginal increases they sought after for efficiency gains. Four MPG? Are you kidding me? It may be alot over the life of a car, but we are shooting low here.
 
It's good for people that were going to do it anyways, but not others.



Flashtime... they've updated their site and that statement is now false 100%. Read about it on another car forum. :)
 
Hmmmmmmmmmm hypothetical of course;

My American made POS (here come the flames) gets 13 MPG's with the wind at its back. Its worth about $2,000.00. The US Government will give me (basically) $4,500.00 of the 10's of thousands in taxes I have paid them over the last 30 years of working, instead of giving it to the slob who came here illegally. So I pay $4500 less for the car I want, which gets twice the MPG's, which cuts down on my dependence for fuel. At todays $3.00 per gal, I save $1,200.00 a year on fuel based on 12,000 miles per year. (Oh I'll just put that in a nice savings account right? I dont think so...........back into the economy it goes. ) What would happen if gas was only $2.00 PG?

At last check, 175,000 people had participated in the program. Multiply that x 400 gal of gas per year! Comes out to 70,000,000 gals less consumed by Americans.

You speak of low inventory? So American car companies now have to produce more cars, possibly creating more jobs (even temporarily is better then none at all) Oh shoot, ya mean now they cant collect unemployment? And American car companies can pay the government back the millions they owe them?

And I havent even begun yelling yet!!
 
I have not thought enough about the macro and micro economics of this program yet. However from a car lover perspective, I really hope that some of the classics and great cars that deserve saving get a chance to be saved.



Even better, we get to see great details that come out from these cars getting new life.



Eg. A classic camaro or mustang saved and restored to be a garage queen.
 
corrswitch said:
I have not thought enough about the macro and micro economics of this program yet. However from a car lover perspective, I really hope that some of the classics and great cars that deserve saving get a chance to be saved.



Even better, we get to see great details that come out from these cars getting new life.



Eg. A classic camaro or mustang saved and restored to be a garage queen.



Anyone that trades in a classic Camaro or Mustang as a Clunker deserves to be pushed into traffic! Ok, that's a bit harsh but you get the idea.
 
I have paid them over the last 30 years of working, instead of giving it to the slob who came here illegally

Now why would you bring illegal aliens into this.Honestly They are hard working people and the majority never get their taxes back. That was just uncalled for.
 
I actually have really strong opinions about this. I think anybody should be able to buy/drive any vehicle they want, but within some reasonability, just as I think people should be able to do what they want...but not have anarchy. I don't care what people do in their private lives, as long as they are not killing people, stealing things, etc. So by the same token, I think people should be able to drive what they want, as long as it has some non-anarchal effect on other people.



Here's where it gets sticky for some people. Most of us are young enough to not really remember life before the Clean Air Act. I have seen pictures of NYC in the 50's with air thick enough to cut with a knife. I can remember how much worse the LA air was 30 years ago, I can't imagine what it was like in the 50's or 60's. Today a lot is said about the national security implications of dependence on foreign oil.



So, these issues seemed to be for the common good in the 70's. The government created regulations to reduce the emissions of vehicles dramatically, get lead out of the fuel, and improve fuel economy. There were a lot of hard years, with a lot of crappy cars. Cars got smaller, etc. The fuel economy regulations plateaued in 1985. By then, or a few years after, I think cars were pretty good. They were mostly front wheel drive and much lighter and more space and fuel-efficient (albeit smaller) than the cars at the time of the '73 Arab Oil Embargo. Although emissions regs continued to be tightened after 1985, fuel economy regs remained flat until just recently.



There was a huge loophole, however, in that vehicles above 6000 lbs. GVW were exempt from the fuel economy, emissions, and safety regs that were enacted in the 60's and 70's. Why? Because those vehicles were considered work trucks that were so small in number as to be insignificant. However, when fuel prices didn't rise in the 80's and 90's as expected, passenger vehicles began to grow bigger, as well as the cash cow the Big 3 had in taking those 60's design trucks, putting leather seats and stereos in them, and selling them as "luxury SUV's". Ultimately 50% of new vehicles were classified as "trucks" and were exempt.



There were really no end to complaints about the cars in the transition period, though, and a lot of tampering with emissions and fuel economy equipment for real or perceived gains. Ultimately the regs caught up with the trucks a few years ago, and now they have to meet the same requirements as "cars". Can anyone today really say that cars are crappy with all that government-mandated fuel economy, safety, and emission gear? Cars are so fast today, so clean, and really get reasonable mileage for the performance and equipment they have. My point is that all the bellyaching 30 years ago about how our lives were over because cars were doomed was just that--a bunch of doom and gloom. I can tell you that 30 years ago we would have given our left nut to have cars like today's...but if you had asked us 30 years ago we would have told you that we'd be driving motorized skateboards by now after the impact of all the gov't regs.



So I really wish the government had done the right thing in 1985, which would have been to incrementally notch up the CAFE limits, as well as making the "trucks" comply with the passenger car regs. With another 20 years of development, we wouldn't be grousing about what we're going to lose in terms of choices due to fuel economy regs, and perhaps the Big 3 would have made better marketing choices and have been stronger at this time.



Shortly after 9/11, I saw George Schultz (Reagan's Sec'y of State) being interviewed. When asked what was the most important thing we could do in the "war on terror" his response was to reduce our dependence on foreign oil, because we send billions of dollars to people who don't like us very much and who in many cases have agendas which are effectively anti-American (he was referring to the Saudi funding of madrassas around the world, who preach an anti-Western fundamentalist Muslim philosophy).



In the absence of the government (and in effect, we collectively as a people) doing the right thing in 1985, I don't think the cash-for-clunkers is a bad thing. As Patrick noted, it's going to help some people get a new vehicle and save some fuel costs, get some people off of unemployment, etc. I think it would have been nicer if, as has been noted, it required a bit more of a step up in fuel economy; that would more target the guzzlers, etc.



I can think of worse ways to waste tax money.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
As Patrick noted, it's going to help some people get a new vehicle and save some fuel costs, get some people off of unemployment, etc. I think it would have been nicer if, as has been noted, it required a bit more of a step up in fuel economy; that would more target the guzzlers, etc.



I can think of worse ways to waste tax money.



Except you forget that the vast majority (not all, but majority) of those taking advantage can't afford a new vehicle to begin with. Oh sure, they'll get an extra 6 or 7mpg (not really - how many people drive their cars in a fuel-conservant manner; not many, most just floor it light to light) and save $20 a month on gas, but now they've got a $400+ car payment to make.



It's a waste because this (debt) is all going to come back to bite you guys in the *** again.
 
Horrible. I don't know where in the hell they got the term clunkers from, but it totally doesn't apply.



My Accord is worth at best $1000. Needs a good bit of mechanical work. But it still gets 28mpg.



My dad's Durango is in excellent shape, but qualifies for it. He owes too much money on it to even think about it. But then again, I think that's what those dipshits in Washington wanted.
 
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