Cadillac dealership new my home......

[Lotuseffect]

So I went to pick up a customers Silver 06 CTS-V after servicing and bring it home for a detail. I had to wait a bit so I walked through their lot. Every single vehicle has very bad swirling and spiderwebbing. The entire side of the highway near the dealership is under construction to widen the road. There is white chalk dust floating everywhere all day long. Add to this most likely a horrific high volume wash program by their in house detailers makes for very ugly cars.



I was thinking of broaching the subject to the manager and possibly offering my services to him. However, I dont want to be insulting to the in house detailers in the first place. In the second place I truly don have the time to undertake the sheer volume of vehicles they have.



If I was the owner I would file an injunction against the state for the road work damaging the vehicles. I realize this falls under "fighting city hall" but I mean there is no way I would ever buy a car off this lot or even suggest to anyone to do so.



Any thoughts from others on how to broach this tactfully?

 

[C. Charles Hahn]

You could offer your services to "train the detail staff to improve the quality of their results while maximizing efficiency and profitability"



Go in for a few days, charge a hefty consulting fee, overhaul the department and your job is done.

 

[WAS]

So I went to pick up a customers Silver 06 CTS-V after servicing and bring it home for a detail. I had to wait a bit so I walked through their lot. Every single vehicle has very bad swirling and spiderwebbing. The entire side of the highway near the dealership is under construction to widen the road. There is white chalk dust floating everywhere all day long. Add to this most likely a horrific high volume wash program by their in house detailers makes for very ugly cars.



I was thinking of broaching the subject to the manager and possibly offering my services to him. However, I dont want to be insulting to the in house detailers in the first place. In the second place I truly don have the time to undertake the sheer volume of vehicles they have.



If I was the owner I would file an injunction against the state for the road work damaging the vehicles. I realize this falls under "fighting city hall" but I mean there is no way I would ever buy a car off this lot or even suggest to anyone to do so.



Any thoughts from others on how to broach this tactfully?

Do they sell cars ? Do their customers notice the swirls ? I ask, because you may notice them, but 95% of the rest of the population probably doesn't. If they're still selling the vehicles, then they won't care.

 

[Richard Grasa]

You could try getting some business from them, but I would bet if they have in-house detailers the only time they would ever use you would be if they had a major customer complaint about the swirls. And even then they would probably have their guys just throw some glaze on it and call it good.



I like Charlie's idea about training their staff though. If you convince them that your training could help them be more PROFITABLE they may go for that. Dealers = $ and don't care much about anything else.

 

[Ron Ketcham]

Fellows, they certainly care about the bottom line, that is number one.

However, in order to get the models, etc they need for their market another "number" comes into play.

It's called the "CSI" number, and once you become aware of what a dealer's CSI number is for some areas of the over-all ranking, you may have an "Ace" to play.

Takes a little detective work, some chumming around with their staff, to find out the real numbers, after all, it's a dealership and they will only tell the good side of things.

Grumpy

 

[Richard Grasa]

Fellows, they certainly care about the bottom line, that is number one.

However, in order to get the models, etc they need for their market another "number" comes into play.

It's called the "CSI" number, and once you become aware of what a dealer's CSI number is for some areas of the over-all ranking, you may have an "Ace" to play.

Takes a little detective work, some chumming around with their staff, to find out the real numbers, after all, it's a dealership and they will only tell the good side of things.

Grumpy

Interesting. What is the CSI number? Is it customer service something? Please elaborate a little, I'm all ears. Or eyes...

 

[Ron Ketcham]

Customer Satisfaction Index (one or two refer to it as Indicator).

Vehicle is bought, sometime in the following 3 weeks to 2 months, the vehicle owner gets a questionaire.

Not sure what today the "weight" is for the vehicle appearance is, but 5 years ago it accounted for aprox 1/3 of the total score.

The lanquage used in the questionaire is done so as to not bring up a red flag in the customer's perception, though it does happen, but done in such a way that the manufacturer has a good idea of what the customer was happy with and unhappy with.

Keep in mind, the time lag before the questionaire goes out, and so they take in consideration "buyer's remorse", you know the feeling, that first payment is due and you go "what was I thinking?".

When using this approach to attempt to obtain some of a dealers business, one must be very careful and choose their words carefully.

If the dealer has a body shop, try to find out if they are doing a more than normal amount of warranty work. (often means the detailer group is so bad the dealer has to repaint or replace),

If you know someone on the sales staff, try to find out from him what he is getting for information on CSI from sales meetings, etc.

The manufacturer tracks warranty costs in many ways and from many sources.

If a dealer is getting poor CSI and their warranty cost for "fit and finish" repairs is higher than the rest of the region, you got a shot, nothing more, but a shot at doing something with them.

Grumpy

 

[WAS]

Fellows, they certainly care about the bottom line, that is number one.

However, in order to get the models, etc they need for their market another "number" comes into play.

It's called the "CSI" number, and once you become aware of what a dealer's CSI number is for some areas of the over-all ranking, you may have an "Ace" to play.

Takes a little detective work, some chumming around with their staff, to find out the real numbers, after all, it's a dealership and they will only tell the good side of things.

Grumpy

If CSI is linked to a customer at all, again, 95% of customers don't see swirls, so why would CSI be poor. The average customer cares more about their free shuttle ride and free "dealer car wash", than swirls they don't notice in the paint.



I'm not trying to be all negative here, I'm just pointing out that most customers don't see swirls, so why would a dealership spend money fixing something that no one notices is wrong.

 

[Ron Ketcham]

It is more than about "swirls", much more.

You are right that if the customer doesn't care why should the dealer.

However, things happen that one does not always hear about, etc.

First there is the all important J.D.Powers rankings, like this week, new numbers out.

Part of those ranking numbers reflect back to the "fit and finish" section, little things like discolored trim that showed up two weeks after taking delivery. Cause, poor workmanship by the dealer's staff, use of incorrect process and materials.

"Oh gosh, I just stained the mirrors black trim, but a little dressing and it will fine."

"Opps, just stained those new wheels, a little dressing or polish and no one will know the difference."

The standard excuse used by many detailers "that wasn't there when I delivered it to you" answer doesn't hold water in the world of CSI and J.D.Powers.

Grumpy

 

[C. Charles Hahn]

You could try getting some business from them, but I would bet if they have in-house detailers the only time they would ever use you would be if they had a major customer complaint about the swirls. And even then they would probably have their guys just throw some glaze on it and call it good.



I like Charlie's idea about training their staff though. If you convince them that your training could help them be more PROFITABLE they may go for that. Dealers = $ and don't care much about anything else.

Exactly, that's the key. Show them that with proper training they can work more efficiently (efficiency = profit) and that is what will get you through the door. The added benefit will be better results, even if that's not the primary thing they're looking for.





Of course another result to hope for is that they call you in every time they sell a "V" model (probably not often) -- kind of like how Jeff (Immaculate Reflections) gets called in to the Chevy dealer for their ZR1s and special editions.

 

[Jpostal]

My shop is located at a used car dealership so I get instant feedback on what customers buying a car care about...

1. Does it have any major damage/scratches

2. Does it smell nice inside

3. Is the interior clean and shiny



And about 100 on the list is "swirl marks".



99 percent of customers don't care because they dont know any better.

 

[C. Charles Hahn]

My shop is located at a used car dealership so I get instant feedback on what customers buying a car care about...

1. Does it have any major damage/scratches

2. Does it smell nice inside

3. Is the interior clean and shiny



And about 100 on the list is "swirl marks".



99 percent of customers don't care because they dont know any better.

Sorry to ask it like this, but do you think that might have something to do with the sort of clientele a used car lot attracts vs. those who walk in to a Cadillac dealer to buy a new car ranging from $30-80,000?

 

[WAS]

Sorry to ask it like this, but do you think that might have something to do with the sort of clientele a used car lot attracts vs. those who walk in to a Cadillac dealer to buy a new car ranging from $30-80,000?

People buying a new car expect no damage, no dents, but do they actually inspect the car "head to toe" for dents ? Probably not, because they ASSUME there aren't any because it's brand new. Likewise with pain condition. Even IF they knew what swirls were, or orange peel, or buffer trails, or any other defect, they would assume they're not there because the vehicle is brand new. Most folks I would guess are concerned with things like warranty, free oil changes and tire rotations and what the interest rate is going to be.



I'm not trying to be a downer here, I'm just trying to be realistic. If the majority of customers aren't noticing and complaining, the dealership isn't really going to care. Sorry, but it's just a fact.



You COULD try and play the efficiency angle, come in and train their guys to do a better job and do it faster. With that, the factors at play would be how much the guys are paid, if there's more work than they can do everyday, if cars and customers are waiting because they're inefficient, etc.

 

[C. Charles Hahn]

People buying a new car expect no damage, no dents, but do they actually inspect the car "head to toe" for dents ? Probably not, because they ASSUME there aren't any because it's brand new. Likewise with pain condition. Even IF they knew what swirls were, or orange peel, or buffer trails, or any other defect, they would assume they're not there because the vehicle is brand new. Most folks I would guess are concerned with things like warranty, free oil changes and tire rotations and what the interest rate is going to be.

You're still not taking into account the customers who get the vehicle home and realize a day or a week later that there are marks all over it, then go back to the dealer to complain (or, as Ron K. mentions, give low CSI scores, when anything less than a perfect 10 is considered a fail for most). Even if they don't notice on delivery day or think to ask about it because of all the other issues they're focusing on, many do notice shortly after. I've seen and heard those complaints.



Also remember at some dealerships, the service department also utilizes the in house detail shop. I've more than once had to quote $400+ worth of correction work on vehicles where customers had their car "washed" by the dealership for free while in for service. If that doesn't send the message that better training is a justifiable expense, I don't know what does.

 

[Jpostal]

Sorry to ask it like this, but do you think that might have something to do with the sort of clientele a used car lot attracts vs. those who walk in to a Cadillac dealer to buy a new car ranging from $30-80,000?

Of course the clientele is different but the large majority still don't care about swirls IMO. Maybe I'm wrong but I kinda don't think so...at least not in my part of the world. I do work for a couple dealers that sell high end vehicles and most of the time I am not even required to wax them let alone do any sort of paint correction.



I hate to say it but you (Autopian detailers) are part of the 1%. Maybe Autopia should get "Occupy" style shirts made that say "I am part of the 1%".

 

[C. Charles Hahn]

Of course the clientele is different but the large majority still don't care about swirls IMO. Maybe I'm wrong but I kinda don't think so...at least not in my part of the world. I do work for a couple dealers that sell high end vehicles and most of the time I am not even required to wax them let alone do any sort of paint correction.

We don't even need to talk about paint correction or waxing to get down to the real problems here. The fact is these dealerships are doing damage to vehicles simply by *washing* them incorrectly, let alone what they sometimes damage when they let the buff-monkeys loose with a rotary polisher, dirty wool pads, and glaze.

I hate to say it but you (Autopian detailers) are part of the 1%. Maybe Autopia should get "Occupy" style shirts made that say "I am part of the 1%".

So in other words, we should all just be complacent and applaud shameless hack work because it's "good enough" for the little people who won't know any better as long as no one tells them they could be getting something better? What is so wrong with employing modern techniques and products that produce a superior result in the same or less time (adding value to a service)? That is called a competitive advantage in the marketplace.



Place a vehicle that has been polished up with old school glaze and then washed incorrectly a few times next to an identical car that was polished with modern equipment and techniques and washed correctly, and I'm willing to bet people *would* see a difference. They might not be able to tell you what the difference is, but they would see that something is different. That is, after all, why detailed cars command a higher ATP than dirty ones. Making sure that detail lasts (even as it sits collecting lot rot) falls under the category of "service after the sale" and might be enough to entice buyers to come back for more ancillary purchases, where the real money is made.



It takes guts to challenge the status quo; doesn't anyone here have the brass to push for something better?



I guess I don't know what Autopia is all about or what we're here for anymore if the attitude is "people don't care, so we shouldn't either, just shine 'em, ship 'em, and rake in the dough."

 

[Lotuseffect]

I am going to broach the CSI subject with my customer who uses them for servicing and regular maintenance. See if I can find out anything. I think this weekend I will head over to the lot again and talk to a manager if possible and try to delicately nudge the manager in to considering Charlie's idea.



I dont think I am being "autopian" about the swirls. Ill try to describe the situation, the cars have a good deal of fine white chalk dust on them from the roadway. The swirls are very apparent at any angle. If I can sneak a couple pics of some sun shots I will.



I think maybe the best angle to attack this from is a combination of what Charlie said and Ron talked about. Possibly something to the effect "Look I know this marring isnt your fault, however the construction is causing damage as I am pointing out to you. I am sure you guys dont want your fit & finish CSI getting a poor rating because of the construction. I can either give your staff a quick training course on polishing these cars before the customer drives away or you can call me and have me take the time to correct these vehicles prior to the customer taking ownership. Either way your customers and your dealership is protected."



Maybe something along that angle.

 

[Jpostal]

We don't even need to talk about paint correction or waxing to get down to the real problems here. The fact is these dealerships are doing damage to vehicles simply by *washing* them incorrectly, let alone what they sometimes damage when they let the buff-monkeys loose with a rotary polisher, dirty wool pads, and glaze.







So in other words, we should all just be complacent and applaud shameless hack work because it's "good enough" for the little people who won't know any better as long as no one tells them they could be getting something better? What is so wrong with employing modern techniques and products that produce a superior result in the same or less time (adding value to a service)? That is called a competitive advantage in the marketplace.



Place a vehicle that has been polished up with old school glaze and then washed incorrectly a few times next to an identical car that was polished with modern equipment and techniques and washed correctly, and I'm willing to bet people *would* see a difference. They might not be able to tell you what the difference is, but they would see that something is different. That is, after all, why detailed cars command a higher ATP than dirty ones. Making sure that detail lasts (even as it sits collecting lot rot) falls under the category of "service after the sale" and might be enough to entice buyers to come back for more ancillary purchases, where the real money is made.



It takes guts to challenge the status quo; doesn't anyone here have the brass to push for something better?



I guess I don't know what Autopia is all about or what we're here for anymore if the attitude is "people don't care, so we shouldn't either, just shine 'em, ship 'em, and rake in the dough."

Let's agree to disagree on this one. I respect your opinion but my opinion is obviously different.



Maybe Barry or David could chime in and let us know how many times a dealer asks for a full correction. Since this thread is in the business and marketing section I assume that the OP is trying to grow his business. If you are a one-man show running out of your garage at home maybe you can make a living off of full correction work only, but if you have a shop with staff and lots of overhead it is the right move for your business to spend your time finding work that will keep you busy (doing work the rest of the world wants). That doesn't mean you cant offer the premium services, but you have to put your business first.



I guess it comes down to what type of business you want to own and operate. For me I would like to build a business that allows me to spend more time with my family which means focusing on volume work that can be performed by staff when I am away from the shop. I don't want to be a one man show because when I get sick, or hit by a truck, or go on vacation I want to still be making money.



Take from Autopia what you want. I am less and less interested in reading about the multi-day correction details and have become more and more interested in learning from the people who have created sustainable detailing businesses (with or without them working on the cars full time). That's whats great about Autopia...there is something for everyone.

 

[C. Charles Hahn]

Let's agree to disagree on this one. I respect your opinion but my opinion is obviously different.

I'll certainly agree to disagree, as I think there's a difference in philosophical approach going on here, but I do have to point one thing out:

Maybe Barry or David could chime in and let us know how many times a dealer asks for a full correction. Since this thread is in the business and marketing section I assume that the OP is trying to grow his business. If you are a one-man show running out of your garage at home maybe you can make a living off of full correction work only, but if you have a shop with staff and lots of overhead it is the right move for your business to spend your time finding work that will keep you busy (doing work the rest of the world wants). That doesn't mean you cant offer the premium services, but you have to put your business first.



I guess it comes down to what type of business you want to own and operate. For me I would like to build a business that allows me to spend more time with my family which means focusing on volume work that can be performed by staff when I am away from the shop. I don't want to be a one man show because when I get sick, or hit by a truck, or go on vacation I want to still be making money.

Nowhere did I say "full correction" -- and I honestly think that's where we're getting lost in translation. There is a LOT of middle ground between (albeit profitable) hack-style work that is clearly causing damage to vehicles, and "Autopian level" perfection and full correction detailing. There are ways to raise the bar without going whole-hog.

Take from Autopia what you want. I am less and less interested in reading about the multi-day correction details and have become more and more interested in learning from the people who have created sustainable detailing businesses (with or without them working on the cars full time). That's whats great about Autopia...there is something for everyone.

Being profit driven should not have to completely preclude someone from also being results-driven, nor does being results-driven have to preclude someone from maximizing profitability. It's about finding a good balance between the two. In my mind that's what sustainability is really all about in this industry.

 

[Jpostal]

Nowhere did I say "full correction" -- and I honestly think that's where we're getting lost in translation. There is a LOT of middle ground between (albeit profitable) hack-style work that is clearly causing damage to vehicles, and "Autopian level" perfection and full correction detailing. There are ways to raise the bar without going whole-hog.

With this point I fully agree. Nowhere did I say that I want to run a hack & swirl operation. I do believe a profitable and sustainable shop can be created doing volume work that is performed at a higher standard.



Anyway, I think this thread got way off track. If the OP can sell the Cadillac dealer on a one stepper, correction work or training more power to him. At the very least he will make a contact at the dealership that might send him some work when that rare customer does complain about swirl marks.