Burnishing questions

[FJF]

Hi, folks. I recently burnished one of my cars with FPII and a Flex. After seeing Todd's video on Youtube, where he used FPII with a rotary, I realized that I didn't work the polish long enough. I plan to give it another shot next weekend.

I have a PC, a Flex, and a large selection of pads. The paint is relatively soft. Product-wise, for burnishing, I have UF, FPII, and Griots Machine Polish 3. To tell the truth, I'd like to not use FPII, as it may take a while to break down the product with a DA. For me, UF would be the better option. These are my questions:

1. Is UF a good product for this application? If not, what is? If it is, approximately how long should it be worked? I don't want to make the same mistake again.

2. Is a (LC) grey pad the one to use, or would a blue/red or gold pad be a better choice with UF on fairly soft paint?

3. On my initial attempt, I worked the polish on speed 5 and slowed down to speed 3 for the last few passes. Is this a good way to go?

 

[Todd@RUPES]

Hi, folks. I recently burnished one of my cars with FPII and a Flex. After seeing Todd's video on Youtube, where he used FPII with a rotary, I realized that I didn't work the polish long enough. I plan to give it another shot next weekend.

I have a PC, a Flex, and a large selection of pads. The paint is relatively soft. Product-wise, for burnishing, I have UF, FPII, and Griots Machine Polish 3. To tell the truth, I'd like to not use FPII, as I may take a while to break down the product with a DA. For me, UF would be the better option. These are my questions:

1. Is UF a good product for this application? If not, what is? If it is, approximately how long should it be worked? I don't want to make the same mistake again.

2. Is a (LC) grey pad the one to use, or would a blue/red or gold pad be a better choice with UF on fairly soft paint?

3. On my initial attempt, I worked the polish on speed 5 and slowed down to speed 3 for the last few passes. Is this a good way to go?

Final polishing, jeweling, or burnishing is often a time dependent process.

In the case of traditional polishes, the abrasives breakdown and become finer and finer as the polish is worked against the paint. The goal of the final polishing step is to fully exhaust the abrasives, so that only the finest particulate remains, to leave the surface behind with the highest amount of gloss with no visible micro marring or hologramming.

It is because of that goal of the highest gloss possible, that a pad is used with little to no mechanical action. We don't want the pad itself to significantly level the paint, as it becomes the limiting factor in the equation. Since the pad has no significant mechanical action, the abrasives will take longer to break down fully.

Menzerna Final Polish II, despite being an older polisher, still delivers great results most of the time, and is still a favorite finishing polish of many users for good reason. Often the end result of polishing is as much dependent on the technique and skill involved, as it is on the products used. It is why so many people have such diverse (and correct) opinions on what works best for them. It is why I am hesitant to proclaim any polisher is better then the other.

1.Is UF a good product for this application? If not, what is? If it is, approximately how long should it be worked? I don't want to make the same mistake again.

I have never used Ultrafina/Ultrafine on any thing other then a rotary polisher, so I don't know if I am the best person to give advice on that operation. Given the inherit compromises made in pad cut, the final polishing/jeweling/burnishing step requires time to slowly break down the abrasives, and smooth the surface for that final gloss. I would guess that you need to work each section for about 40-50 seconds at the very least, but let the polish, and it's reaction guide you. The rule of thumb for most final polishing is work a polish for as long as necessary to make it 'flash' or begin to turn clear, then reduce working action and work for a reasonable amount of time longer. This over working will ensure that all abrasives have been broken down and the paint should be near it's highest gloss.

2.Is a (LC) grey pad the one to use, or would a blue/red or gold pad be a better choice with UF on fairly soft paint?

In most cases the black (grey) pad is going to offer the best compromise between polishing action and final finish. The black foam has enough strength to with stand pressure and enough action to effect the breakdown of the abrasives, but will not contribute to visible buffer marks in the paint. Some particular paints may react better to a red pad or even a green euro pad for final polishing, and sometimes we don't know what will give us the best absolute results until we try and inspect.

Keep in mind that switching to even a finer foam (such as the identical red and blue pads) will, in theory increase the amount of polishing time required to break down the polish fully. Switching to too soft of a foam could potentially prevent the abrasives from breaking down completely, leaving the finish actually worse then if a firmer pad was used.

This is why I would caution against using the Concours Gold Foam that we developed. While it is a brilliant foam for spreading polishing, sealants, and glazes, it lacks the density to with stand the pressure needed for most machine polishing. The soft foam (like a soft racing slick) will grab more at the paint, and deflect more during the polishing movement, taking away even more of it's mechanical action.

3.On my initial attempt, I worked the polish on speed 5 and slowed down to speed 3 for the last few passes. Is this a good way to go?

Yes this is a good general concept for final polishing, although missing from the equation is pressure. Because final polishing takes place with low cut foam pad, you want to add pressure or down force to the machine during the initial passes to compress the foam and help break down the abrasives. Once the polish begins to turn opaque, I will reduce pressure, make a couple of more passes, then begin reducing speed. There is no correct way to do this however, on the way that works best for you.

Hope I helped!

Todd

 

[FJF]

In most cases the black (grey) pad is going to offer the best compromise between polishing action and final finish. The black foam has enough strength to with stand pressure and enough action to effect the breakdown of the abrasives, but will not contribute to visible buffer marks in the paint. Some particular paints may react better to a red pad or even a green euro pad for final polishing, and sometimes we don't know what will give us the best absolute results until we try and inspect.

Keep in mind that switching to even a finer foam (such as the identical red and blue pads) will, in theory increase the amount of polishing time required to break down the polish fully. Switching to too soft of a foam could potentially prevent the abrasives from breaking down completely, leaving the finish actually worse then if a firmer pad was used.

Todd, thank you for taking the time to respond. Your comments and tips are very helpful. Relative to the quote above, how would you suggest inspecting the paint? The color is essentially gunmetal grey - not the most reflective - and sometimes it's hard to see the effect without doing the whole car. At least it is for me. I have the usual assortment of lights - dual 500w halogen, fluorescent, and a Brinkmann. What signs should one look for in order to determine a given pad's effectiveness in this application?

 

[imported_broker99]

how much product do you place on the pad Todd, my understanding is that you want to use just a little.

 

[Todd@RUPES]

Todd, thank you for taking the time to respond. Your comments and tips are very helpful. Relative to the quote above, how would you suggest inspecting the paint? The color is essentially gunmetal grey - not the most reflective - and sometimes it's hard to see the effect without doing the whole car. At least it is for me. I have the usual assortment of lights - dual 500w halogen, fluorescent, and a Brinkmann. What signs should one look for in order to determine a given pad's effectiveness in this application?

Honestly the best we can do is inspect the paint with our own eyes and determine what looks best to us (short of whipping out a gloss meter). I would polish two sections, side by side, with each pad, and see if you can tell a difference. I can tell you that in my experience the more I looked to improve my paint's gloss, the more I was able to 'train' my eye to spot things like very faint micro marring, or slight changes in gloss. Again I could be seeing things:cursing:

There is a good chance that there will be no difference on the final gloss, given your color. In this case, I would elect to use the more aggressive (gray over red)pad, to shorten the amount of buffing time needed. (Since a less aggressive pad requires more buffing time to break down the abrasive). This is obviously against the time honored recommendation of the least abrasive product to get the job done, but it is how I would personally approach the situation.

Always keep experimenting with different products and processes and compare the results you see, it is part of the fun of being a detailer, and the only true way to continue to grow.Todd

 

[FJF]

Thanks again. Your comments make a lot of sense. I'll post a follow-up toward the end of the weekend.