Buffer marks.... Ugh...

I

imported_Aurora40

New member
My wife's car was recently at a body shop. It was rear-ended by an SUV at low speeds. The bumper and trunk were punched-in a bit. They replaced the bumper cover, and repaired the trunk. Apparently they buffed out some of the rest of the rear end, perhaps while blending the paint? When I picked the car up, it looked great. In fact, the parts that were repainted looked amazing. They looked like a Scottwax picture. Yesterday, it got into the 60's here, so I decided to wash her car. Well, the rear sides and the top of the trunk are covered in buffer marks (these are not parts that were repainted. The repainted parts look fine). They look like swirls marks, except very very close together and in a very regular pattern. At first glance I thought there was some haze on the paint like it didn't clean right or the soap was hazing (which has never happened). But no, it's buffer marks. So now I'm wondering if I should take the car back to them to fix, or just try to PC them out in the spring... I just don't want them to remove a ton of clearcoat, and if they left marks in the first place, what makes me think they will be competent enough to fix them? Although, everyone makes mistakes... Can they spray on more clear if they buff a lot off? I guess first I will give them a call and see what they say.



Other than the buffer marks, they appear to have done an excellent job on the car.



On a side note, when I first picked the car up, the paint had probably been on there no more than two days. It looked incredibly deep and bright. It matched the rest of the car color-wise, but totally stood out by being so bright and deep. Now, about a week and a half later, the paint looks just like the rest of the car. It is a bit brighter, but mainly just because it isn't lightly swirled or anything. Is that normal? Does the paint still look extra good for a few days? I mean, it wasn't like the paint was still sticky or anything. I thought I was going to have to bust my butt to make the rest of the car look good enough to match the bumper, but I guess I won't have to now... :)
 
If you take it back to have it redone... unless they use different products/procedures it will come out the same.



Ask them to show you what they used to buff it the first time.



Did they use a wool pad?



Did they use a non-diminishing abrasive compound?



2-step procedure?



etc.



If you take it back, and they offer to re-buff it, then tell them you don't understand how you will get better results if they use the same products.



I have called on a zillion body shops, for the most part; they like to do their buffing work as "Fast" and as "Cheaply" as possible.



And yes, they often have to buff out the surrounding areas, and sometimes the entire car to get the old paint to look as nice as the repair. Now understand, unless they tell you this upfront and charge you for it, they look at it as a "freebie", thus even less incentive to use quality products and extra time and care.



You might consider investing in a rotary buffer, or renting one for a weekend and removing the swirl yourself.



This is where it helps to know what chemicals they buffed it with, it will give you an idea of how deep the swirl will be.



Mike Phillips
 
If they are marks from a rotary chances are a PC will not remove them, the PC will not build up enough heat. It will take more polishing from a rotary to fully remove them if that's the case. Call them and tell them about the problem, put them on notice. They should offer to pay for the damages to be fixed by a professional.
 
Thanks for the info. I too wonder how they will fix it when they caused them in the first place. Perhaps, though, they will just take more time and be more careful now that they realize I won't accept buffer marks. I sort of doubt that they will pay for another body shop to fix it (I think they probably consider themselves to be professional). But perhaps they will be able to make it acceptable. At the worst, it isn't a car we care an awful lot about, so I guess that's something... :nixweiss



I will see what they are willing to do, although even just leaving the car there for a day will be a bit of a PITA. I'll keep you all updated!
 
At a minimum... make sure they are not using a wool, or synthetic fiber, buffing pad for the final buffing procedure.



Wool and/or Synthetic fiber buffing pads are excellent for cutting or removing paint, but for the same reason they are excellent for cutting, or removing paint, they are not good for producing a swirl-free finish.



Each fiber instills its own scratch into the finish, thus the swirl.



Insist on foam polishing pads.



Of course if the initial cut was made using an aggressive non-diminishing abrasive compound together with a wool cutting pad, then a foam polishing pad together with a cleaner/polish and or pure/polish will not be aggressive enough to level the surface, i.e. remove the scratches, but instead will probably just fill them in. Then, when you wash the car again, the swirl will appear… again.



This is why polishing paint, especially with machines is an art unto itself. It takes time, experience the right tools and the human element of "caring", in order to get a swirl-free, show car shine.



Mike Phillips
 
I don't have any experience with body shops, so take that into consideration when you read my comment ;)



Maybe, if you bring it back, they'll get the guy who is good with a buffer to do it this time.
 
Mike Phillips said:
Did they use a non-diminishing abrasive compound?
Click to expand...



Does that kind of "stone-age" compound still exist? I thought all companies these days use either kaolin clay, Alum Oxide, cystaline/amorphous silicates...etc....with the best compounds using a combination of at least two of the three? All three have varying rates of diminishment and will break down with both heat and pressure...with clay having the quickest, AlO2 being in-between and silicates having the slowest rate of diminishment.
 
Definitely still around. Cheap and fast cutting, two things some/many in the industry still want.



I have been working a lot in the Mold Release industry in the past few months and stone-age compounds are still very present in this industry as well as the bodyshop and detailing industries.



Mike
 
I talked to the guy somewhat about detailing. He mainly uses 3M products, so I imagine it was more user than product error. He said I can bring it back and they will buff (he said they would buff it out and then use some swirl remover. Not sure what the first product would be, but the SMR would certainly do some hiding, which may be why I didn't notice it in the first place) it out while I wait. When I asked if that might be a problem for the clearcoat, he said it wouldn't be removing any paint.



What he said doesn't really "add up" in my mind, so it doesn't fill me with confidence about their technique (although maybe they can do great work but just suck at explaining things to customers...). But, I don't want to get in an argument with them, and I don't see the point as I wouldn't want them to "fix" the car after I anger them... So, I'm thinking either take it in, explain that I expect them to repair any future clearcoat problems if they arise as a result of their buffing, then just let them do their thing, or I'm thinking I just won't take it back. I'll see what I can do with a PC (which may not be much at all) and perhaps just rely on hiding it. At least that way this is as bad as the car will get. I'd be sort of hesitant to rent a buffer because I don't exactly know what I'm doing. But hey, I guess they didn't either, and at least I care... The car has other little dings and such, so this really isn't going to hurt the resale value (and while it doesn't look great, it isn't horrible. It's sort of hologram-like and isn't always noticeable). And my wife doesn't care that much about the appearance of the car. I'll have to see what she thinks about it too.



I really hope no one ever hits my car! :o
 
Aurora

As the PPG instructor knows, most body shop do a very quick "cut and Buff" and ship the car out the door. They are not detailers and do not make any profit taking additional time to really slow down on a final finish procedure. I suggest that you find a competent detailer you trust and ask them to finish the work. I do this on a regular basis for customers with repainted cars. So much so that several body shop now just send the vehicles to us to finish. They need to get the cars out fast and tiying up the inhouse detailer causes a backup. Much easier to tag on my price than slow down their production.

The comment that his next procedure would not remove any clearcoat at all should cause you to run the other way. He just let you know he has no idea what he's doing. Any time a vehicle is polished using any type of rotary polisher there will be some amount of the finished surface removed. Unless he plans to wipe a filler/glaze on when your out of site the paint does need polishing to remove the swirls. A product like 3M's Perfectit III swirl remover will probably do the job. Using a foam pad and low speed around 1250 rpm's a good detailer will make the surface smooth as a baby's bottom. After removing the swirls a decision has to be made as to whether a non-silicone glaze should be used to allow for the cure period or if baked and cured already than the application of a good polymer wax for protection.

Good luck, hate to see a nice car messed up.

Tom
 
Masterfinish (and everyone), thank you for the replies and advice. I too was a bit concerned when he said it wouldn't remove any clearcoat.



I think what I will do is just leave it. As I said, it won't really hurt the value of the car, so I don't have a lot of incentive to pay a detailer to fix it (plus, I don't know any around here, so I'd be taking another risk with the paint).



I guess my plan will be see what I can fix with the PC, and then fill, fill, fill... They told me to wait 3 months before applying a protectant, so I think I will (although he could certainly be wrong).



Thanks all for the help!



Oh, so what is the verdict on new paint? Does it look better for the first few days and then start to look more normal? Or was it because there were some glaze/oils there that dissappeared due to the lack of sealing them in with a protectant? Just curious, any ideas?
 
Definitely a cover up with glaze, fillers and oils. When you washed it they came off and you seen the hidden swirls. This can affect the resale value and it may be possible to reduce the marks yourself using the random orbital. While they do not remove anywhere near the material a rotary can they certainly can help over a period of time. Even a person hand polishing and waxing will remove swirls eventually. Regarding the resale, just be sure and put a good coat of wax on before selling as it would cover long enough for the car to sell. Thgat is what most dealers do. They use cheap combination polish/waxes as a one step process to make the car look good for about 30 to 45 days unless they get washed real good, but most places just rinse cars on the lot.
 
I haven't seen the car myself, but in my 11 years of detailing have removed swirls from hundreds of cars. Here is my best guess at what to do.



1. Use a high speed rotory with a foam buffing pad at around 1200 rpm with a fine polish say meguires #7 or DACP. Use this low rpm but use a lot of pressure and a lot of product. It will be messy.



2.use mequires machine glaze and a less agressive foam pad at same rpm.



3. Use 3m swirl mark remover with an 18 pound random orbital buffer



4. Follow with an 18 pound random orbital buffer and a quality liquid carnuba. Change bonnets when switching to the wax



There are other product lines out there but these are the easiest to get and do a good job. I have never used a porter cable but don't think it would remove these type of swirls.
 
I've had good luck using the PC on the type of buffer marks I think Aurora40 is talking about . . . here's a before shot (dealer induced swirls):

DealerInstalledBufferMarks.jpg




After PC with cutting pad and Finesse-It II, plus one coat of Zaino Z5, the buffer marks were gone (it's tough to tell from that picture, but the paint had no visible swirls around the sun-flares when we were done):

FullTruck.jpg




Good luck,

Tort
 
My guess is the intial problem was overspray and they used a buffer to remove it. I see it all the time. Far too many body shops do not use clay to remove overspray.



They are going to need to go back over with foam pads and probably finish with a foam waffle pad to remove all the swirls. Make sure when you pick it up you wash a section then pull the car into the sun and check to make sure they removed the swirls and didn't just hide them again.
 
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