Bucketless Washing w/Foamgun

Accumulator

Well-known member
On another thread, ZoranC posted:



Also, while two bucket method is one way of implementing best practices I have high dislike for that particular implementation because it physically hurts me (my back doesn't like repeated bending down and straightening)...I feel I can do same by using no buckets but by using bigger number of mitts per vehicle (that I already have anyway) and not rinsing them ..



Use hose and foam gun to soak, spread mitts around, do a section with mitt in right hand and foam gun in left spraying bursts as you go, after you finish section or if neccessary put that mitt away into "to wash" bag / small bucket and grab next clean mitt for next section, and keep going. Done..."



I suggested he try a BHB instead of the mitts, and he posted back:



BHB? Boar's hair brush? It wasn't crossing my mind to use something that rinses cleaner because I wanted to get away with using buckets altogether ..



We were about to commit an egregious threadjacking, so I'm picking the topic up again here. I thought this might be of interest to somebody besides ZoranC so I'm not just pursuing it via PMs.



While I'm gonna continue to rinse my wash media via dunking in the rinse bucket, if you're not gonna do that a BHB seems like a better choice than a mitt.



ZoranC- I fear I failed to explain the rationale behind the BHB suggestion, I'll try to explain. Noting that I'm given to nitpicking when it comes to wash techniques, two things come to mind- 1) dirt stuck to the mitt and 2) the need to change mitts.



1) When I use the foamgun with mitts the dirt tends to stick to the mitt; a very dirty car can result in my moving a dirty mitt across the paint. Yeah, the lubrication from the foamgun helps prevent marring and the flushing from it keeps the mitt from getting *too* dirty. BUT with the BHB, the foamgun basically rinses it clean as you go and thus it hardly *ever* gets very dirty to begin with so you don't drag the dirt across the paint as much. This is borne out by the way my rinse buckets are often *very* clean at the end of a wash, even with winter-dirty vehicles. The dirt gets dislodged and flushed away instead of getting caught in the nap of the mitt.



2) Using the BHB, you wouldn't have to stop and switch to a clean one. You might want to stop and rinse it out *with the foamgun or the hose* if you've just cleaned a *really* dirty panel, but you won't need to dunk it in a bucket. There's no way to exaggerate how well the BHBs rinse clean...no matter what's on them they simply shed it- very different from with mitts. So you'd just walk around the vehicle with the BHB in one hand and the foamgun in the other, cleaning away.



Also, I find that with the BHBs it's very easy to modulate the pressure being exerted on the paint, much easier than with a mitt. I find that holding a mitt in very gentle contact with the (vertical) panels can be a little tricky, and it's harder to move the mitts in a "jiggling" motion, as opposed to the more common long "swipes". The jiggling motion keeps any marring that *might* occur very tiny, as the wash media only move a short distance at a time (if trapped dirt causes a scratch, a 1/4" scratch won't show as readily as a 4" one).



I've often thought that for non-Autopian-level washes (think charity carwashes or the casual DIYer), the above technique would be a *lot* better than the typical approaches. Performed with a higher degree of thought and skill, as ZoranC would employ, it'd work even better.
 
Accumulator,



I'm quite opposite of you, I know nothing of proper wash techniques, so please bare with me as I might be asking questions that reflect confusion due to lack of knowledge and experience, which is the case...



Accumulator said:
While I'm gonna continue to rinse my wash media via dunking in the rinse bucket, if you're not gonna do that a BHB seems like a better choice than a mitt.

1) If one was to rinse wash media (by dunking it in a bucket or some other way) in same intervals which media would be gentler on a paint, BHB or mitt, assuming a) equally very dirty car, and b) equally "clean" car? Or mitt is better for "clean" cars while BHB is better for very dirty cars?



Accumulator said:
When I use the foamgun with mitts the dirt tends to stick to the mitt; a very dirty car can result in my moving a dirty mitt across the paint. Yeah, the lubrication from the foamgun helps prevent marring and the flushing from it keeps the mitt from getting *too* dirty. BUT with the BHB, the foamgun basically rinses it clean as you go and thus it hardly *ever* gets very dirty to begin with so you don't drag the dirt across the paint as much.

2) Do you see any difference in gentleness on the paint between two following techniques (assuming "cleaner" car):



a) Two buckets: Soak car real well, soak mitt real well, wash section following mitt with foam gun, rinse mitt, do next section, repeat



b) No buckets: Soak car real well, soak mitt real well, wash section following mitt with foam gun, "throw away" mitt, grab next mitt and soak it real well, do next section, repeat



3) I definitely see advantage with "jiggling" vs. "long strokes". How good is BHB in dislodging dirt stuck to paint, especially on vertical panels? Will I be using more pressure for something that mitt would just swipe away thereby risking deeper scratch?
 
ZoranC- I find your challenges with regard to washing intriguing. It could very well be that you've already found the best method for your needs, but I'll try to address your Qs and maybe you can get something of value out of the discussion.



1) If one was to rinse wash media (by dunking it in a bucket or some other way) in same intervals which media would be gentler on a paint, BHB or mitt, assuming a) equally very dirty car, and b) equally "clean" car? Or mitt is better for "clean" cars while BHB is better for very dirty cars?



Think I'll try getting fancy with the text color, see if it makes for easier reading...

I find this (perhaps surprisingly) hard to answer..there are a lot of variables. The mitt is gentler in and of itself, but in practical application it won't always work out that way depending on how the various media are used. But *without* a foamgun* being employed, my vote would be for the mitt (preferably used by filling it wiht wash solution, holding it shut, and allowing the solution to seep out while using it).



The great thing about using the foamgun is that it can basically eliminate the "intervals" and thus make for a continuous flushing/rinsing/etc. When I wash I try to keep the foamgun going all the time my wash media is in contact with the paint.



Used with the foamgun the BHB wins on a very dirty car. On a clean car I use a mitt, shooting the suds between the mitt and the panel.



In fact, one of my most commonly used methods is to first clean with the foamgun/BHB, rinse, and then do it again with the foamgun/mitt. The primary benefit of the BHB is its free-rinsing nature so I use that to get the big, loose stuff off first. But when both pass the CD-test it's hard to say that either's likely to cause a problem.




2) Do you see any difference in gentleness on the paint between two following techniques (assuming "cleaner" car):



a) Two buckets: Soak car real well, soak mitt real well, wash section following mitt with foam gun, rinse mitt, do next section, repeat



b) No buckets: Soak car real well, soak mitt real well, wash section following mitt with foam gun, "throw away" mitt, grab next mitt and soak it real well, do next section, repeat





First, a modification of the technique- don't *follow* the mitt with the foamgun's output, direct the output at the point where the nap of the mitt contacts the panel; try to "cushion" the mitt with a layer of suds. If you *follow* the mitt you'll be rubbing the mitt against the paint without all the lubrication/flushing that the foamgun can provide.



As for the actual Qs, there are several things to consider:



Saturation of mitt with wash solution: IF (big "if" IMO, but...) you get the mitt equally saturated with solution, and I'd also *fill* the mitt with solution, then either way will accomplish that part of the job equally well. But I suspect that most people would do a better job of effecting that saturation with the bucket. It's easy to do an imperfect job with just the foamgun, but if you submerge the mitt (cuff-up) in the bucket so it fills with solution it's gonna be about as saturated as it can possibly be.



Rinsing of mitt: NO question at all in my mind that submerging the mitt in a bucket of rinse water and agitating it will rinse it clean *much* better than trying to rinse it with the foamgun. I can't rinse mitts decently with the foamgun even with my boosted water pressure.



Frequency of rinsing/replacing mitt: If I'm washing a dirty vehicle, and I'm not using a BHB, I'll rinse the mitt *MANY* times, say...maybe four or more times for just a single door! Extreme- yeah, excessive- perhaps :nixweiss I simply won't move a dirty mitt across paint and if a vehicle's really dirty the mitt becomes contaminated after very little contact. I do not find that dirt migrates up into the mitt away from the paint to any significant degree. So if *I* were to use the bucketless mitt method, I'd go through a zillion mitts.





3) I definitely see advantage with "jiggling" vs. "long strokes". How good is BHB in dislodging dirt stuck to paint, especially on vertical panels? Will I be using more pressure for something that mitt would just swipe away thereby risking deeper scratch?



This can be problematic...sometimes the BHB can be too gentle to dislodge firmly adhered [stuff]. You don't want to use the BHB with a lot of pressure as the sides of the bristles (as opposed to the tips) won't be too gentle. I can see where this could be so much of an issue that you'd have to switch to a mitt. But at least the looser dirt would've been safely removed by the BHB first.



When I use the two-stage wash (BHB then mitt) I'll sometimes have to use Sonus green clay to remove tenacious stuff; my wash methods are simply too gentle to dislodge it. I've become very good at claying without marring and this isn't a problem/concern for *me* but it might be a deal-breaker for somebody else.



Oh, and the jiggling is a lot easier for me to do with the BHB than with the mitt.
 
Accumulator said:
... but I'll try to address your Qs and maybe you can get something of value out of the discussion.

Accumulator, I enjoy to learn and listening to you one learns a lot so I am happy you posted what you just posted. Here is what I got out of it:



Accumulator said:
But *without* a foamgun* being employed, my vote would be for the mitt (preferably used by filling it wiht wash solution, holding it shut, and allowing the solution to seep out while using it).

Filling mitt with wash solution wasn't crossing my mind, subsconciously I would put it on my hand and dunk it in solution. I need to switch over to filling as I see huge value in it.



Accumulator said:
In fact, one of my most commonly used methods is to first clean with the foamgun/BHB, rinse, and then do it again with the foamgun/mitt. The primary benefit of the BHB is its free-rinsing nature so I use that to get the big, loose stuff off first.

After reading through your whole post that's what I too will be doing. It will reduce number of bigger impurities that would get trapped in mitt otherwise and therefore it will reduce demand on mitts. So, I will add BHB to my "process". Any advice where I can get best one? TOL is asking over $50 for theirs, is it really worth it?



Accumulator said:
First, a modification of the technique- don't *follow* the mitt with the foamgun's output, direct the output at the point where the nap of the mitt contacts the panel; try to "cushion" the mitt with a layer of suds. If you *follow* the mitt you'll be rubbing the mitt against the paint without all the lubrication/flushing that the foamgun can provide.

Thanks! :)



Accumulator said:
Saturation of mitt with wash solution: IF (big "if" IMO, but...) you get the mitt equally saturated with solution ... But I suspect that most people would do a better job of effecting that saturation with the bucket. It's easy to do an imperfect job with just the foamgun, but if you submerge the mitt (cuff-up) in the bucket so it fills with solution it's gonna be about as saturated as it can possibly be.

Got it :) I will definitely have to find a way to achieve this.



Accumulator said:
Rinsing of mitt: NO question at all in my mind that submerging the mitt in a bucket of rinse water and agitating it will rinse it clean *much* better than trying to rinse it with the foamgun.

That's what I thought would be the case, that's why I didn't consider rinsing them when not using buckets but always reaching for new one.



Accumulator said:
Frequency of rinsing/replacing mitt: If I'm washing a dirty vehicle, and I'm not using a BHB, I'll rinse the mitt *MANY* times, say...maybe four or more times for just a single door! Extreme- yeah, excessive- perhaps :nixweiss

Now I see what was making me wonder about reasons behind your suggestions :) My need / requirement is much lower so I might be able (I hope) to get away without buckets as long as I follow rest of your advices.



Accumulator said:
I do not find that dirt migrates up into the mitt away from the paint to any significant degree.

Do you have experience with sea wool sponges? I heard arguments for them that include "dirt gets pulled away from the surface" so naturally I am curious would they work as advertised and would they rinse good with foamgun.



Thank you again!
 
ZoranC said:
.. So, I will add BHB to my "process". Any advice where I can get best one? TOL is asking over $50 for theirs, is it really worth it?
Yeah, they're worth the cost IMO and they usually last a long, long time. There are different ones on the market and wouldn't you know it, the TOL one is one that I haven't tried yet! I'm sure it's OK though. There are differences that can matter, such as britsle lenght. I have ones with long bristles (AutoGeek) and ones with shorter ones (Griot's) and both have their place. Other things being equal, the long bristles are more gentle, which can be good/not depending on what you're doing. Flip a coin or just buy the one from TOL. But CD-test it and remember to test it *wet with wash solution* not dry as a dry BHB is one rough thing to rub against anything (as is a wool washmitt ;) ).





Do you have experience with sea wool sponges? I heard arguments for them that include "dirt gets pulled away from the surface" so naturally I am curious would they work as advertised and would they rinse good with foamgun.



I had so-so results and quit using them (sold my unused ones to fellow Autopian who loves 'em). Just because they don't work for me that doesn't mean they wouldn't work for somebody else, but *I* never found them to pull the dirt/etc. away from the surface up into the sponge (presumably via capillary action). More often the dirt got rubbed against the paint. These are another thing that I'd only rinse out by dunking...squeezing a sponge underwater is a very effective way to rinse it out and I can't imagine the foamgun doing a very decent job of it.
 
Accumulator, if sea wool sponges are more prone to rubbing dirt against the paint then they are out of my bucket. I don't have as high standards and demands as you but still I don't need to introduce additional work for myself either. So, sponges are out, BHB is in.



Thank you once again!
 
This is an interesting blast from the past.



hurrycane - are you referring to the bucketless sponge that's currently being advertised on radio? The one that has wax built into it? Spongetech?
 
hurrycane said:
Have you ever used the bucketless sponge?



Nah...sponges of any type, used with any technique, don't work all that well for me.



The *only* way I'd wash without buckets is with the foamgun/BHB and after that I'd still go back and use mitts for the second pass, which would require buckets anyhow.
 
David Fermani said:
This is an interesting blast from the past.



hurrycane - are you referring to the bucketless sponge that's currently being advertised on radio? The one that has wax built into it? Spongetech?



No I not this is a sponge you put you own soap in. It works great gives you the best wash ever you never put dirty soap and water back onto your car. I bought one from there web page. I use it on my show car 73 vette never puts a scratch on the finish.
 
David Fermani said:
Accumulator - Did you catch the Adam's thread on winter washing @ the Coin-Op wash using a BHB & Foam Gun?



Gotta admit I quit watching..just couldn't take it. At the point where he says "..this makes for a painless wash..." I was just too stressed out. That's the second how-to-wash video from Adam's that uhm...well... :bolt



I hate to be harsh, but...gee...
 
SOooooooo, since this thread is back from the dead, and I suppose I could keep things neater by not starting a new thread, Are high quality BHB's as safe on the paint as the TBM? Sorry, still learning things and since I have my foam cannon on its way, I figure if I can just as safely and efficiently wash cars with a BHB over TBM, then I'd prefer that approach.
 
WhiteStripes said:
SOooooooo..Are high quality BHB's as safe on the paint as the TBM?



Used properly, some of the good BHBs are so gentle that they don't even bother the dirt :o Do a quick search in the Detailing Products forum for my BHB comparison (hint: search on my user-name as thread originator; I post a lot but I haven't originated all that many threads so it oughta be easy to find)



I dunno if using a BHB really *replaces* the need for the two-bucket-method. Even when I use the self-rinsing-via-foamgun method I dunk the BHB in a rinse bucket from time to time and then into a shampoo bucket (prior to resuming work with the foamgun).



If you have normal/low water pressure that S-R-V-F method might not be a good idea even *with* the right BHB; I dunno how much my boosted pressure improves my foamgun performance but it might be quite significant.



Oh, and IME you still need the two-bucket-method for the follow-up with mitts. The BHBs just don't get things quite clean enough IMO (that "too gentle" thing again) so you need to do a final pass with a mitt once you get the "big stuff" off with the BHB. And *that* will, IMO, require the TBM even with a foamgun.
 
Cool thanks for the info. I'm not worried about water pressure as I'm running an Autobrite Lance through my Karcher. I'm sure that will provide plenty of foam :D



I'll check out your BHB thread though.
 
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