BLACKFIRE... <insert dramatic drum roll here> ;)

I

imported_Aurora40

New member
Ok, I wanted to post my observations with Blackfire. I have the Gloss Enhancing Polish and the Protectant courtesy of SonnyDaze (Thanks again!! :bow :wavey)



When I first got them, I was eager to try them on the car. I currently had some #26 on the car that was about 3-4 weeks old. The car was clean so I QD'd the trunk and split it in half. I used some Swirl-Free Polish to remove the existing wax and also to give the surface a nice shine. I then applied the GEP followed by 2 coats of BF. At the time I couldn't tell any difference. It was on there for four days before I was able to strip the car and apply BF all over. During those 4 days, the car came out of the garage for about an hour. Plus, it was pretty overcast, and the BF was on a horizontal panel. I couldn't see any difference.



My detailing day, I decided to see how the BF reacted to the hose. It was quite interesting.



With the hose nozzle on a showering spray (some force) the non-BF side beads up a lot. Some of the water runs off, but not much. The BF side beads (but not as much as the non-BF) while the water is actually spraying. But once it stops, the beads on the BF start to run together. The water slowly sheets off the trunk. It is quite distinct how one half of the trunk has a lot of beads on it, and the other half looks mostly dry with a few stream/bead lines still. It's sort of hard to tell the trunk is split while the water is spraying, but once you stop it is quite obvious.



With the hose streaming a gentle stream (like when you try to sheet the water off before drying), the non-BF side sheets off very quickly. The stream runs down it and flys off like with carnaubas. The BF side sheets off much slower. If you run the hose over the whole thing, half the trunk is dry in a second while the other half is slowly sheeting. It is very distinct. It almost looks like the water clings to it, except if you give it time it will all sheet off. However, the surface feels very slick to the touch. It also doesn't really leave any beads left. Just a few small bead trails from where the water ran off. The non-BF side sheets mostly but still leaves some large beads/puddles (you know how carnauba does).



When I did actually sheet the car after I was done washing it, I noticed that the BF patch was almost totally dry when I got around to drying it. The non-BF side was mostly dry, but still had some large beads.



I was pretty impressed with how dry the BF part was whether the water was streaming or spraying. However, if you watch it, it looks clingy like there isn't any protection. It is possible that this is why some people have felt like the protection left their car. However, I certainly don't know what each of you experienced. The clinging of the water does look a lot like that picture Metallic Mike (MikeLS) posted a while back showing water clinging to Platinum (although I am not insinuating that Plat and BF are the same, just that his picture illustrated it well. I searched for that picture but can't find it). The BF was only on my car for 4 days in a garage and didn't get washed, so I'm quite certain it was still there. Plus, my car beads water when there's nothing on it.



I stripped the car with APC+ at a 64:1 ratio (actually, it was probably closer to 80:1). I then applied SFP to the places that needed it, and then BF GEP to the entire car followed by 2 coats of BF Protectant. There was probably about an hour between protectant coats as I ate lunch, but the wait isn't needed. I also buffed it off right away since that's what the directions call for.



Inside the garage the car looked a bit more shiney, but that was about it. Outside (having seen it for a few days) it looks better than the #7/#26. It has the same depth/darkened color (maybe a little more darkened color in the shade) as #7/#26 did. But, it has what seems like a clearer reflection and the car seems more metallic than it did before. I really like the more metallic look it gives, and I am quite pleased with BF thus far. I am looking forward to seeing what the car is like to wash when it's all BF'd, and how bugs and such clean off of it. Of course, I also want to see how long it lasts. I suspect it will go longer than a carnauba, but even if it was the same length of time, the BF would be worth it to me. It looks better and is easy to apply and remove. I will put another coat on in about two weeks and maybe try a carnauba topper to see how it looks later.



Anyway, this was just my experience with the product. It isn't meant to be representative of everyone's experience with it. But I give it a thumbs-up :xyxthumbs
 
I also really like BF over my base Zaino layers. Good depth,wetness and color representation. Reflection and clarity equal to or extremely close to Zaino. Application is a breeze ( instant curing) and their QD is very good. Very compatible with P21S/S100 with slight improvement in depth and wetness.:xyxthumbs
 
Good review! But I think you may have me confused with another Autopian. I certainly did have water laying in clinging sheets and pretty much not moving anywhere after 2 weeks, and some harsh weather. But, I didn't take a picture of this effect, wish I had though! I do think I remember someone else posting a pic like that showing this effect, but I can't remember who. OK, I'm cleared! :D



Also, the beading that was present "underneath" the topper product, never returned, indicating to me the presense of harsh chemicals or abrasives in the "topper." Doesn't matter to me which it is, it's the fact they were there. Water never did bead after that, until I applied another product, not Zaino, to the car again. I will admit that the side that was applied with the said "topper" was slick, especially while washing, more so than the Zaino side (but I had not applied Zaino to the other side in at least 1 month). But, I submit this: apply any cleansing or abrasive product to any surface and it will feel slick afterwards and while washing, without a drop of protection present on the surface. So, I feel as though the topper had cleaned my surface, stripped it of any previous protection, and left nothing to boot. Great results indeed! In fact, I feel as though I need to apologize to some Autopians for thinking my review a while back was intended to "slam" or "bash" on a product. In summary, my test was initially good, I was impressed, then things turned South very quickly after I saw a few things going on. Nothing more than a good experience that turned into a bad experience. If I had known the end result already, I would have never tried the products, simple as that. But, I'm sorry it got out of hand. All I can say is that it won't happen again, because I'll never use the product again. The only other thing I'll say is....YMMV!!



BTW, to avoid further confusion, the product I tried was NOT BF. Draw your own conclusions....
 
Oh, sorry about that Mike. :( I apologize. I thought it was your picture. I'll try another search and see if I can find it. It was a very illustrative picture.



Ah ha... I found it:

Dcp_0409a.jpg




Len_A posted this (so I hope you don't mind me linking to it). He posted it as a link, not inline which is probaby why I missed it while slogging through a million comments about platinum. Here is the thread that it came from. I'm not trying to say anything about his experience with Platinum. Just that this picture is what the water looked like when it sheeted slowly off the BF'd side of my trunk. It was very clingly and slow-moving.



Oh yeah, as an aside, the smell of BF (both the GEP and protectant) really remind me of Gold Class liquid wax. They have the same type of smell. It smells pleasant, but not edible.
 
I got a bottle of the new formulation of BF to try. I put a coat on today.



When I first applied the 2 coats of original BF two weeks ago, it felt pretty slick. However, after washing it today (with Gold Class) it does lose slickness. However, the BF is definitely still on the paint. For one, the car hasn't been washed, and has barely been out of the garage, for the two weeks. It got rained on a little, but there's just no way it could have worn off. Also, the car still looks excellent and that metallic sparkle is clearly still there. I think that's just the way the product is. The car does seem a little easier to dry as the water does sheet off better when streaming it with the hose for a final rinse.



My initial impressions of the new BF from looking at it are that it is thicker and has a blueish tint to it. Also, it has a slight chemical smell but this may just be because no fragrance has been added yet (it's a demo bottle, so maybe that will happen before it's sold). The chemical smell is pretty faint, though. In using it, you smell it sometimes but it isn't overpowering. You don't smell it all the time, though, as it isn't that strong.



As I put the new formula on my PC finishing pad for the first time, it is much much thicker than the previous formula. It really globbed out and I put a bit too much on at first. It applies easily enough, although it seems like it's more concentrated. You feel like you have to spread it out on a big surface sort of quickly before it starts to set up. Sort of like Klasse SG, but not quite so that extreme. The original was easier to apply and spread around. Also, it feels like you used a little more of the original to cover the same area (which can be good for ease-of-use of the original, but bad for bang-for-the-buck of the original). After the initial application to the pad, there was always some sort of soaked in (perhaps because I put so much on initially). I ended up putting just a little blob (it is real thick, so it comes out in blobs) on for each panel, probably about half as much product on the pad per panel as I would have used if it were the original formula. As I said, it's a little more effort that the original, but you use less product. So it's fine with me either way. It isn't hard to apply by any means.



After I applied it to the whole car, I started to buff the roof off. That was where I first applied it, so as I stated, it was a bit thick there. It sort of moved around a bit so I thought it was just because I used a lot. Anyway, I was able to buff it off fine without too much effort, but it used up a whole 16"x16" MF (flipping and everything. I mean the whole towel). I wiped my finger over the hood, and it too moved around. So I decided to leave it on and eat lunch and catch some of the Petite LeMans race (I hope Caddy ends up on at least one podium). When I came back out, it was basically the same. It wiped around a good bit. It does buff off fairly easily, but it requires swapping towels a lot. The surface it leaves behind is incredibly slick. I mean slick. It also looks great. Very reflective. Can't really say if it looks better than the original since it's on top of 2 coats of the original. But the car looks more reflective. Also, the temp today was mid 60's and the humidity is around 80%. So that might have been a factor in the wipe-off.



To compare with the original, I think it takes a little bit more attention to apply because it seems sort of concentrated. Also, it seems a little harder to buff off. The slickness is incredible (although I don't have long-term info on it, but I'd bet it will retain slickness. The original wasn't supposed to stay slick so it's no surprise it didn't). I'm very pleased with both formulas. It would be nice if the new formula gets a scent like the original (which I imagine it will). I wouldn't say the new formula is better than the old, just different. It emphasizes different things. Like slickness over super ease of use. The original was so dang easy to apply. It's a great product for people that have trouble applying protectants. This ease of use also means it takes less time to apply. And the results are simply excellent. The new formula is a little bit trickier to use. But you can get more coats per bottle. All told, if they sold both formulas, I can't say I'd absolutely buy the new mix. I think the old one was pretty great too. I guess I'll have to try them both a little more to decide. I mean, really, think if they made a more concentrated version of whatever product you like. You'd get more for your money, but it would be a little harder to apply since you have to use so little over a big area. It's a trade-off. But maybe you prefer it maybe you don't. The new mixture is definitely a great product. So if the only thing you didn't like about Blackfire was the lack of slickness, then maybe you ought to give this a try. I give it another thumbs up. :xyxthumbs



---------------

Ok, here is an aside. I've noticed this with both Klasse SG and this new Blackfire. Actually, although the surface they leave is totally different, they apply similarly. I know everyone says don't get water in SG. And I sure as heck don't try to get water on it and I don't spray the pad. But I have noticed that when a tiny bit of water gets into SG and also this new BF, it makes it easier to spread the product around. If you don't spread it fast, they both just end up real thick on part of a panel. But a little water helps you get it all over the panel (sort of buys you some time). It makes the application easier. Now, with SG it makes the removal a bit harder because it gets sort of gummy there. You can see it thicker where the water got in with it. And you have to buff a lot more to remove it (although it does come off). Now, with this new Blackfire, I noticed that the parts where water got into it were the only parts where it dried completely. Those were the parts where it didn't push around while buffing it off. I noticed that to a much lesser extent with the original BF, except that it ever so barely pushed around. It hardly pushed enough to notice, so it wasn't a big difference (and I thought I may have imagined it). Oh, I've never experience the Klasse "haze" that people talk about. But maybe I've just never noticed it... With the Klasse SG, it's a trade-off because it's easier to apply but harder to remove. But with the BF, it's easier to apply and actually easier to remove (it takes a little more pressure sometimes, but less passes over it, and it gunks up the toweling much less). Anyway, just an aside... :)





Oh, another aside. This new BF came with a new cap. However, with the old and the new I managed to launch a glob of it at least once while opening it. I do shake it up all the time, though (each time I apply it I'll shake the bottle). Maybe I'm just a dope... :nixweiss With the new bottle, I only launched one glob, whereas with the old I'd launch it all the time. But with the thicker formula, it really was a glob. With the old stuff it was more of a little spray that went flying.





Edit: Ok, my final aside... The "Dum Dum Dummmmmm" was meant to be dramatic drum rolling. Not an implication that the product was dumb... I don't know if it was amusing to anyone or if you all just think I'm retarded... :o ;)



Edit: In re-reading my post, there are a few things I can make a little clearer, so I did. Also, Caddy only took one podium (third) and the Corvettes took 1st and 3rd in GTS! Wonder why I like the Caddy? It uses an IMSA Aurora 4.0L V8 engine with twin-turbos. :D And hey, who changed the thread title? ;)
 
I drove the car around today and did some errands. The car looks absolutely amazing. I was walking away from it backwards in parking lots. I couldn't stop looking at it. I'd put another coat of the new stuff on yesterday (and used less product which was easier to buff than the first coat of new stuff I applied, but still a little bit harder than the original). So in the last 2 1/2 weeks I've put on GEP, 2x original BF, and 2x new BF. After the original, the car looked great (the best it's looked up until now) and had a nice reflection and richness. Plus, it looked very metallic which I really like. Today, the car looked radioactive. It really had an amazing "pop" to it. It finally looks as good as I've pictured in my mind. It's very reflective and still very metallic (which I love), but it has this glow to it too. I'm very very very pleased with the look. I don't know if it's due to the new formulation or if 4 coats of the original would look just as good. I can't speak to the durability, but I expect it to perform as advertised.



On recommendation from MrDetailer I will probably try out the BF shampoo and maybe pick up some of the QD (although I'm not a big QD'er as I try to wash every week or two).



I'm not saying this is the best product out there as there are many I haven't tried (and that's an awfully subjective statement). What I can say is it gave me the look I was looking for. The picture I have in my mind of my car shining and having a head-turning pop has been fulfilled by Blackfire. :xyxthumbs I can't think of a better way to sum-up my satisfaction with it than that. That said, I still want to try topping it with Souveran just to see (and of course, evaluate its durability)... :)
 
That's a great review. Thanks for the follow up. How is the dust issue? Do you find that the new BF attracts less than the old one?



(RE: thread title..... NP ;))
 
To tell you the truth, I don't really notice the dusting. I'm not sure I could say which dusts more or less. I rarely use a CCD or QD (except on immediate crud removal or to aid in buffing). If the car is extra dusty I just figure crap is falling from the ceiling or I drove somewhere dusty or something and I need to wash it. I'll have to start paying more attention to that. I guess I could say it doesn't dust so crazily that I've noticed it... but that probably isn't much help. Sorry. :)
 
Aurora40 said:


What I can say is it gave me the look I was looking for. The picture I have in my mind of my car shining and having a head-turning pop has been fulfilled by Blackfire. :xyxthumbs I can't think of a better way to sum-up my satisfaction with it than that. That said, I still want to try topping it with Souveran just to see (and of course, evaluate its durability)... :)
Click to expand...



Good review Aurora4.0. :bow I could not have stated my results with original BF over my 60-80 coats of Zaino any better. Blackfire now gives me the appearance I have been seeking.. deep,reflective, very wet and color trueness. I will receive my test sample of the reformulated Blackfire tomorrow and can not wait to apply several coats.

By the way the Blackfire QD is very good also. It adds a little more "pop" after a day of curing of the protectant.

Reccommendation::xyxthumbs
 
Thanks BlkZ28Conv (and Jngrbrdman). :wavey I really appreciate the feedback. :xyxthumbs Most of the BF threads have a bunch of replies, so I was starting to wonder if my review sucked... :) I think I will try out the QD along with the shampoo. Especially since CMA is running a discount.



Abercrombie, the durability seems to be a hot topic. Some say it lasts a few weeks while some say it lasts months. I haven't had it on for more than 3 weeks, so I don't have much info. What I can say is I fully anticipate it will last 4-6 months with no problem. I can also opine that it's possible that Blackfire only seemed to last a short while because of it's strange sheeting behavior coupled with it not being a very slick product (the original, that is). I noticed both of those characteristics (and noted them in my review), but I know that the BF was still there. The original formula didn't have the "tell-tales" that it was still there, like being slick or beading. But again, that is just an opinion. If you are concerned about it's durability through the winter, maybe wait until spring to buy some and try it out. But if durability is the only thing keeping you on the fence, you should definitely buy some and test it for yourself.
 
WOW, What a wonderful review.



I just got my new Blackfire kit.. Although I wish I had some GEP to do it 'right.



I was going to do my car up this past weekend but the weather turned bad on sunday. I had washed the car saturday but didn't get it as clean as I wanted... it's still got some bug splats on the front end.. stubborn bugs!



Anyone wanting to send me a 'sample' of GEP is more than welcome to :D
 
Aurora, i got the sample from terry yesterday, im just waiting for a saturday or sunday when its nice to spend about a couple hrs with the whole process. Now i do have a couple ?s, #1, what paint cleaner should i use(my cars in beautiful condition, so i don't need anything really abrasive) #2 what polish should i use under the blackfire(i was thinking mothers sealer and glaze since i had it, but will that affect the bonding of the paint?)? and #3, im i able to layer blackfire or is it better just to apply one layer?
 
Abercrombie2582 said:
anyone have a clue?
Click to expand...



Geez, you expected a reply within 25 minutes? Well, this is Autopia, so it was possible. Anyway, I'm no BF expert. But Terry said you can use it over any polish or glaze. Use the Mother's if you want to. Or you might just try applying the protectant right to the car. Don't bother with a polish/glaze. You said your paint is in good condition, so just go with the Blackfire. I think you'll find it will look awesome even by itself (although please report if it doesn't as I've only used it over the GEP). You can definitely layer it. And, you can layer it right away. I'd say it makes a difference. One layer will look great, but like most any other sealant, more layers looks even better. But, try it for yourself. Put one or two on and live with it for a week. Then put another one or two on (probably after washing the car) and see if you like it better. It's so easy to put two on in a session (especially if you don't bother with a polish/glaze) that there's almost no reason not to (and the bottle was free, so even less reason not to :) ). Let us know (or at least PM me) what you think of it. And remember, use it sparingly. The directions on the back are basically for the original, so I'd say cut the amount in half. A little really goes a long way.



Edit: Good advice to follow... BlkZ28 makes good points about calling Terry if you're unsure (he is the BF expert) and about not applying it over a carnauba.
 
Abercrombie2582 said:
anyone have a clue?
Click to expand...



I would call Terry about the virgin finish ( no GEP) and bonding questions. I have used the Blackfire protectant over multiple layers of Zaino. No problem at all. I have also mixed the BF and Zaino - no problem. If your finish is denuded of all carnuaba residue there should be no problem. Nevertheless, call Terry at CMA since this trial and your results are only good if all perimeters for proper usage is followed.:wavey
 
I received my trial version of the "new" BF protectant from CMA. This is a full size sample supplied with a MF applicator. Thanks Terry for the "first class" approach of testing new formulation. Christmas in October!!! :D

DavidB I am not doing a formal review just some initial impressions.

With that said, my first impressions are mixed and incomplete.

As mentioned quite eloquently by Aurora 4.0 earlier there are quite a few differences between the original and revised BF. I have been using the original (BF1) about 5 months now. BF(1) was/is easy to apply and buff and gave a carnuaba-like wetness and depth with polymer sealant type reflectivity and clarity.

The new BF (BF2) is thicker, slightly darker in color and slightly more oily.

The BF(2) is extremely sensitive to the thinness of applied protectant. It is now very Zaino-like in terms of the "thin is better philosophy". The first version of BF was quite a bit more forgiving in terms of application thickness. The new version "MUST" be applied very, very, very, thinly. If not the haze really never becomes apparent and buffing, though easy, requires multiple towels and a final MF buff. But like Zaino after one acquires this skill of thin application the buffing step is quite easy. Unfortunately, yesterday was one of our cooler days ( ~60*) and had just received ~2" of rain ( ? high humidity). This may have sometime to do with the difficulty in acquiring a good haze formation.

The resulting surface slickness has definitely improved

I can not yet give a comment on the appearance outside the fact that indoors under fluorescent garage lighting the finish appeared very wet and reflective. I will pull the Z28 out today to evaluate the completeness of the buffing of new formulation and appearance ( i.e. hazing, evenness of finish, reflectivity, gloss, and wetness).

This new product is definitely harder to work with in comparison to the original formulation and requires more time ( I averaged ~30-40 mins.) for full drying (hazing). This may or may not be ambient temp and humidity related. I will apply another layer(s) today ( less humid and slightly warmer temps expected) and evaluate.

I can not wait to see what the results look like outside in bright natural light.

My test mule (LS400) will be used for durabilty. Hopefully this will be done this weekend at which time the new BF along with another product I promised to test will start their evaluations.

More comments will follow as the test progresses. :wavey
 
Funny, my experience of application and removal were very different. It felt more slippery during application and was easier to control the thickness. I was shooting for about the thickness I apply Zaino (thin). Removal was easier too. I just used one 16�x16� MF for removal. I did one panel with the old formula for comparison, and it definitely was more difficult to work with. Weather was in the mid-60’s and overcast. YMMV ;)



The finish is very slick and looks just as good as the old BF. If the durability of the shine and slickness are up there with Klasse and Zaino this is going to be a great product.





Adam
 
Adam M said:
Funny, my experience of application and removal were very different. It felt more slippery during application and was easier to control the thickness. I was shooting for about the thickness I apply Zaino (thin). Removal was easier too. I just used one 16�x16� MF for removal. I did one panel with the old formula for comparison, and it definitely was more difficult to work with. Weather was in the mid-60’s and overcast. YMMV ;)



The finish is very slick and looks just as good as the old BF. If the durability of the shine and slickness are up there with Klasse and Zaino this is going to be a great product.





Adam
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Hi Adam,

Actually our results are quite similiar if not identical. I wrote:The new version "MUST" be applied very, very, very, thinly. If not the haze really never becomes apparent and buffing, though easy, requires multiple towels and a final MF buff.

But like Zaino after one acquires this skill of thin application the buffing step is quite easy.

When I critique a product I like to inform of the problems and/or technical mistakes I made. After realizing my mistake of applying too much product I started the "Zaino-like" thin coat application. Problem solved. Maybe my illustration of a technique error will help someone in their initial usage of this new version of Blackfire.:xyxthumbs :wavey
 
You guys are both right-on. Like BlkZ28 alluded to, it's perspective of the results that's different. For a person who used Klasse SG and Zaino (from what I understand, as I haven't used the Z) then you will find the new Blackfire quite easy to apply and buff off. You have already mastered incredibly thin coats (or else you suffer every time you detail), and this experience will serve you well in using the new BF (I like that BF2 idea). You won't skip a beat as you start out using very small amounts of BF2 since that's how you apply things. You'll probably find it easy as pie.



However, if you are used to using BF1, or most Meguiars products, or many other more mainstream products (that I'm just not familiar with), you will be used to having the application be pretty thickness-indifferent. With BF1 you could apply a thin coat and save on product (although you'd still have to use a bit more than with BF2), but if you were a clod and used a ton, it was still easy to apply and remove. BF2 is not as forgiving (as BlkZ28 put so well).



I can remember when I used Gold Class Wax, and even before that when I used Meguiar's Cleaner/Wax. I'd take the bottle and squeeze out about 4 or 5 (pretty thick) lines across the hood. Then I'd put some on the pad of my PC (I did basically the same thing for hand applications in the pre-PC days). This way I could do the whole hood without stopping for more product. I did the same thing when I started using MPPP before I learned better ways. You guys would probably choke if you saw how much product I'd put on there. But it worked fine, and buffing and hazing wasn't a problem. They were products that you could do that with and still have them work fairly easily. BF1 was like that. It was quite easy/forgiving to use. I could have come from that background, bought some BF1, and been very happy with the results. But BF2 would have been a pain in the butt for me to use back then and I'd be on Autopia University saying "BF2 won't come off, what am I doing wrong?". So in writing a review of BF2 (especially when comparing it to BF1) it is important to point out that depending on your application techniques (your perspective, if you will) you may find that switching from BF1 to BF2 is not as simple as you might think. Also, it informs current users of BF1 that BF2 isn't just BF1 plus better stuff. There is some trade-off involved that you should at least consider before you put your BF1 on abay in order to scrounge for the new stuff. That's all... :)



Great review BlkZ28Conv, and I look forward to your durability observations as well. :xyxthumbs
 
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